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REVIEW: Umineko WHEN THEY CRY Episode 1: Legend of the Golden Witch GN 1


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Chrno2



Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:02 pm Reply with quote
I'm currently reading it after reading the last 18 issues of Higurashi. I have to admit that the boob jokes are a bit much. I wonder if it was that much in the VN. I watched part of the anime awhile back and I thought it was fun, but that's because I don't have much experience with the novel. Which is the reason why I'm reading the manga. My only question which would probably be directed toward those that have read scanlations of manga and played the VN, how close is the manga material to those two mediums? I have yet to find a source that actually breaks down and analyzes the manga and the VN. I'm not asking about the anime, as I already know that a lot was omitted. So if anyone knows a site that can give a thorough analysis of the manga vs the VN I'd appreciate it.

So far I'm enjoying the manga as I need a good mental twist. But Umineko's psychological warfare is more complex than Higurashi.
We're talking about "who dunnits" and "chess" here.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
BalmungHHQ wrote:

Umineko takes things one step further than Higurashi did in that respect, but at its core the principal is the same. Higurashi: Is it a curse? Or is there a human culprit? Umineko: Is it a witch? Or is there a human culprit?

But in Higurashi it is completely up-in-the-air as to whether or not it is actually a curse/disease/aliens/whatever. In Seacats they take a frickin' sledgehammer to say Look! spoiler[Meta tea-parties! Goat butlers! Giant obelisks! Kanon has a laser sword!] In Higurashi there is subtlety where the viewer is unsure what is actually happening. Seacats has no subtlety at all as to whether or not magic/witches exist. And by the time the 3rd arc started I saw it no longer cared about the mystery it set up and just wanted to be as wacky and inane as possible. I still trudged through the rest of the episodes, but the finale was somehow even more lackluster than the rest of the series.

In terms of your quote above, it didn't matter to me if it was a human culprit or not because I was flooded with pointless garbage instead of any sort of subtle mystery as Higurashi had.

Umineko focuses on the actual mystery cases trust me, episode 2 had spoiler[battler submitting to beato for a reason and episode 3 had continue with that for a while, before they start to explain things] Ryu actually had to basically through out the original book 3 (land of the golden witch) because people were wrongly have similar thoughts to yours.

also "I have to admit that the boob jokes are a bit much. I wonder if it was that much in the VN."
The first episode has far fewer boob jokes in the VN. I would say that the manga speeds up episode 1 but it could use it and actually has pretty much everything that I can think of (I read it over a year ago though). lets say it like this though, I think they go through half of the first novel almost before they end the material that the first episode of the anime is over.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3819
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:17 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
BalmungHHQ wrote:

Umineko takes things one step further than Higurashi did in that respect, but at its core the principal is the same. Higurashi: Is it a curse? Or is there a human culprit? Umineko: Is it a witch? Or is there a human culprit?

But in Higurashi it is completely up-in-the-air as to whether or not it is actually a curse/disease/aliens/whatever. In Seacats they take a frickin' sledgehammer to say Look! spoiler[Meta tea-parties! Goat butlers! Giant obelisks! Kanon has a laser sword!] In Higurashi there is subtlety where the viewer is unsure what is actually happening. Seacats has no subtlety at all as to whether or not magic/witches exist. And by the time the 3rd arc started I saw it no longer cared about the mystery it set up and just wanted to be as wacky and inane as possible. I still trudged through the rest of the episodes, but the finale was somehow even more lackluster than the rest of the series.

In terms of your quote above, it didn't matter to me if it was a human culprit or not because I was flooded with pointless garbage instead of any sort of subtle mystery as Higurashi had.


spoiler[Higurashi wasn't up in the air in the first arc later down the road, we learned the keiichi was having a mental breakdown in the middle of arc one. Now in arc 4 he remembers killing shion and rena for no real reason at all. It was all just brain parasites that lived in that area and would grow naturally with said host. Only if said host would come under extreme stress or depression this would cause mass delusions when the parasite would start attacking the frontal lobe cortex of the brain. Higurashi resolved it's self, mystery was solved and the true mc beat their 100 tortured hell fate.]

umineko on the other hand.. well after reading all of the visual novels I've come to the conclusion what r7 was trying to do. spoiler[spoiler[Since higurashi ended so happily he wanted to some more dark/twisted along the same lines but this time showing people that they need overcome great tragedies instead of hoping that everything will work out in the end.]] I'm not saying his writing was perfect here by any means but he had a story he wanted to tell, told it and that was it.
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casualfan



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 333
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:13 am Reply with quote
BalmungHHQ wrote:
casualfan wrote:
This is basically my first impression of the series. The story is an awesome set-up for a horror/murder mystery. Until spoiler[the witches and their super powers/servants] take over. That part just ruined the series for me, mainly cause spoiler[the family seems to have no chance of winning]. This is definitely not another Higurashi despite being in the same 'When They Cry' series.

Hmm.... you seem to be misunderstanding the series in some ways. Umineko is actually a lot like Higurashi but taken a step further into the metafiction area that Higurashi only very slightly touched upon in the last two arcs.

I can equate your Umineko comment to Higurashi in a way that's like you saying "Higurashi was awesome until spoiler[Oyashiro's Curse takes over], mainly because spoiler[Keiichi and the gang seem to have no chance of winning.]"
... do you see what I mean?
Umineko takes things one step further than Higurashi did in that respect, but at its core the principal is the same. Higurashi: Is it a curse? Or is there a human culprit? Umineko: Is it a witch? Or is there a human culprit?

Just like how Higurashi spoiler[uses certain circumstances to absolutely portray the curse as "real" to the readers (especially in the first 3 arcs)], Umineko does the same thing and spoiler[shows you witches committing the crimes on Rokkenjima.] I believe this is the main theme of the When They Cry series, and both have it in common. It's the kind of mindset that I recommend keeping in mind while exploring Umineko, spoiler[if you aren't careful with how you interpret certain scenes, then you the viewer/reader will fall into the Witch's trap yourself and be wrapped up in a fantasy story simply there to mask the truth of the crimes... though, you can enjoy the tales of fantasy independently as well.]


I don't intend to lecture you or anything with this post, I'm just giving advice on another way to look at the story if you want to give Umineko another try.

All I want is for others to enjoy Umineko as well. Smile


Execution makes a huge difference, though. Higurashi keeps things under wrap making the show felt like a 'proper' murder mystery. It doesn't show Oyashiro running around bullying/torturing/killing everyone with ridiculous powers. At the end it's just personal taste. I just prefer the more covered-up and secretive style of Higurashi.
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1424
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:44 am Reply with quote
I'm almost done the last game VN. It took about 2 years to read them all with a friend. Everyone have fun with these crazy books Very Happy
With the boob joke I forgot someone explained how it was better integrated in the story for character reasons when the anime aired...can't recall.
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Jaymie



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 915
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:06 am Reply with quote
The heart of Umineko and Higurashi are the same. Umineko's heart is just wrapped up in a mile of gift wrap, but once you tear the gift wrap away it truly is the same.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:18 am Reply with quote
casualfan wrote:
BalmungHHQ wrote:
casualfan wrote:
This is basically my first impression of the series. The story is an awesome set-up for a horror/murder mystery. Until spoiler[the witches and their super powers/servants] take over. That part just ruined the series for me, mainly cause spoiler[the family seems to have no chance of winning]. This is definitely not another Higurashi despite being in the same 'When They Cry' series.

Hmm.... you seem to be misunderstanding the series in some ways. Umineko is actually a lot like Higurashi but taken a step further into the metafiction area that Higurashi only very slightly touched upon in the last two arcs.

I can equate your Umineko comment to Higurashi in a way that's like you saying "Higurashi was awesome until spoiler[Oyashiro's Curse takes over], mainly because spoiler[Keiichi and the gang seem to have no chance of winning.]"
... do you see what I mean?
Umineko takes things one step further than Higurashi did in that respect, but at its core the principal is the same. Higurashi: Is it a curse? Or is there a human culprit? Umineko: Is it a witch? Or is there a human culprit?

Just like how Higurashi spoiler[uses certain circumstances to absolutely portray the curse as "real" to the readers (especially in the first 3 arcs)], Umineko does the same thing and spoiler[shows you witches committing the crimes on Rokkenjima.] I believe this is the main theme of the When They Cry series, and both have it in common. It's the kind of mindset that I recommend keeping in mind while exploring Umineko, spoiler[if you aren't careful with how you interpret certain scenes, then you the viewer/reader will fall into the Witch's trap yourself and be wrapped up in a fantasy story simply there to mask the truth of the crimes... though, you can enjoy the tales of fantasy independently as well.]


I don't intend to lecture you or anything with this post, I'm just giving advice on another way to look at the story if you want to give Umineko another try.

All I want is for others to enjoy Umineko as well. Smile


Execution makes a huge difference, though. Higurashi keeps things under wrap making the show felt like a 'proper' murder mystery. It doesn't show Oyashiro running around bullying/torturing/killing everyone with ridiculous powers. At the end it's just personal taste. I just prefer the more covered-up and secretive style of Higurashi.

that is done for a reason. if you read past the first quarter to half of the third novel and still have that problem then their is another issue going on.
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GiriOni



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:34 pm Reply with quote
Love the VN. To be honest the boob jokes, while being the typical strange humor found in many different animes, is actually a small yet huge foreshadowing. Won't speak on how exactly this may foreshadow future events...

07th Expansion, making boob jokes foreshadowing since 2002.©

Hmm... for those who want to grab the VN's for the series, head over to WitchHunt where they'll not only direct you to retailers who can deliver you the game but they've also translated the entire series, and offer patches to play the game in English.

Megiddo wrote:
BalmungHHQ wrote:

Umineko takes things one step further than Higurashi did in that respect, but at its core the principal is the same. Higurashi: Is it a curse? Or is there a human culprit? Umineko: Is it a witch? Or is there a human culprit?

But in Higurashi it is completely up-in-the-air as to whether or not it is actually a curse/disease/aliens/whatever. In Seacats they take a frickin' sledgehammer to say Look! spoiler[Meta tea-parties! Goat butlers! Giant obelisks! Kanon has a laser sword!] In Higurashi there is subtlety where the viewer is unsure what is actually happening. Seacats has no subtlety at all as to whether or not magic/witches exist. And by the time the 3rd arc started I saw it no longer cared about the mystery it set up and just wanted to be as wacky and inane as possible. I still trudged through the rest of the episodes, but the finale was somehow even more lackluster than the rest of the series.

In terms of your quote above, it didn't matter to me if it was a human culprit or not because I was flooded with pointless garbage instead of any sort of subtle mystery as Higurashi had.


Watching the anime and calling Umineko itself bad is like watching one of those recap anime movies (like that One Piece Alabasta one) and calling the entire series crap.

The VN's are still better than the manga and the anime, though the manga is still significantly better than the anime.

As to the finale in the anime, the VN actually reveals much more leading up to the finale of the anime, making it a much better finale for that particular arc.

Similar to books vs movies arguments the VN reveals the inner thoughts of the characters which actually allow the mystery to be solved by the end of the fourth arc.

And the ending of the VN? There was no better ending than that.
Plus the music is 10x better in the VN.

In the end if you fall for the pitfall of the Fantasy side, you will have no idea what's going on in the VN and manga. The anime doesn't give you many chances to avoid the pitfall of the Fantasy side, in fact I believe it to be near impossible to avoid it without prior knowledge of the VN.

Edit: For those who care, yes the boob jokes were actually in the VN.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:17 pm Reply with quote
GiriOni wrote:
Love the VN. To be honest the boob jokes, while being the typical strange humor found in many different animes, is actually a small yet huge foreshadowing. Won't speak on how exactly this may foreshadow future events...

07th Expansion, making boob jokes foreshadowing since 2002.©

Hmm... for those who want to grab the VN's for the series, head over to WitchHunt where they'll not only direct you to retailers who can deliver you the game but they've also translated the entire series, and offer patches to play the game in English.

It's also available on amazon.com how easy is that?
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Etrien



Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 525
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:45 am Reply with quote
So great to finally see some Umineko commercially released in America. The visual novel version is my absolute favorite fictional story (across any medium - films, books, anime, you name it), and it is the only story in the last ten or so years to actually, literally move me to tears. I've never read the manga version, so I have no idea how it holds up, but I am curious about it. Especially now that it has an official English release, I'm probably going to buy it purely out of support.

I guess I'll hurry and get the obligatory statement out of the way: Yes, the anime version is terrible. I am not against adaptations, and I am not among those who feel "they changed it so it's terrible." The anime is bad simply because it is bad, not because it is different. Most of what gave Umineko meaning was cut or abbreviated to the point where all that was left was a chaotic mess. Not to mention, only the first half was ever animated, meaning the actual answers to everything (in a mystery story!) were never even resolved. Newcomers who had no familiarity with Umineko tended to rate the anime as mediocre at best, terrible at worst. Existing fans of the series hated it outright. It existed for essentially no one, sold terribly, and, really, should not have been made when it was.

Okay, that's all out of the way now.



Re: Review

Your overall impression roughly mirrors what my own was at this point in the story, which gives me hope that the manga is doing a pretty decent adaptation. Umineko may have ultimately grown into my favorite series, but it took a long time to reach that level. I look forward to seeing your impression of future installments. (I didn't truly fall in love with it until the second half, which is further than the anime even covered.)

Rebecca Silverman wrote:
One might wish that they had opted to spell cook Gouda's name “Goda,”

Huh. That is strange. The original Japanese visual novel spells it as "Gohda" (in the second, unused, opening), which is also the translation used by the English version of the visual novel. I wonder why they changed that for the manga..? because, yeah, I'd definitely be thinking cheese.

Rebecca Silverman wrote:
Maria's age is not immediately given, and although we know that Battler did see her six years ago, it is easy to gloss over that and assume her to be around six years old herself. This is because she is naïve to the point of appearing to have a handicap

Maria is nine years old and in fourth grade. This was part of the reason behind Rosa's outburst over Maria's behavior, because she still acts so much younger than that (and is consequently bullied and unable to make any friends because of it).
And regarding your last statement, it's my strong belief that Maria...
(the following is only a personal belief about Maria and is nothing ever stated in-story, but I am still spoilering it in case you'd rather not have your thought process influenced by outside sources) spoiler[...is actually intended by the author to legitimately suffer from some level of mental handicap. Most likely a severe case of Asperger's syndrome. This is never said in-story, but the evidence for it is overwhelming and consistent. Additionally, such diagnoses did not become common in Japan until the 1990's, and this story takes place in 1986. And even further, I doubt Rosa would accept such a diagnosis, because she would be more inclined to believe "there's nothing wrong with my child, she just needs to learn to behave!" I say I have a "strong belief" that she has Asperger's, but after a couple passes through the story, I'm actually 99% confident this is the case - to the point where the only thing that would convince me otherwise would be the author explicitly stating otherwise.

By the by, it was Maria's apparent autism that, eventually, also gave me pause on Steins;Gate's Mayuri, which I recently wrote a lot about in that review thread.]


Princess_Irene wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
even though they have not read the source material
I wish I had time to play VNs!! If I ever get the chance, this one is at the top of my list.

Well, if you ever do find the time, the English version of the first Umineko visual novel can be *legally* downloaded here, for free!
(At the very least, you can always enjoy the opening theme from the visual novel. Because it is amazing. "Ratin" choirs!)



Re: Megiddo (as well as perhaps anyone else with anime-only exposure)

It's true that the nature of the story seems to change when (spoilers for the third Episode/Arc/Visual Novel)spoiler[all of the witches and demons and magic begin overtaking everything.] In fact, I'd agree that by Episode 3 and 4, it hardly even feels like the same series as Episode 1. And yet, after Episode 5 (which the anime never reached), it will yet again feel like a different series than Episode 3. And again with Episode 7.

Umineko is an immensely complicated story, and it is always changing and evolving. Yet despite all this, it comes together in the end, and every part eventually makes sense.

Megiddo, your comments show that you were not really understanding Umineko towards the end of the anime, and I don't really think that's your fault. It was a terrible adaptation, and it was probably hard for most anyone to really understand what the point was to it all without all the extra information. But, nonetheless, I do assure you that there was, indeed, much more there. Very little in Umineko is actually pointless, and it never actually dropped the mystery element, even if it was trying its damnedest to convince you otherwise.



Re: Other visual novel fans who have been posting in the thread

Please try to remember that a large part of the fun in reading a mystery novel is discovery and figuring out things for yourself. For example (later story spoilers)spoiler[was it really necessary to repeatedly point out the thing about the boob jokes? I feel like the very first bit of advice - to take careful consideration of everything included in the story - was very sound. But everything after, explicitly pointing out the boob jokes themselves, was entirely unnecessary. We didn't know that had any importance at this point, so why even imply it? Let her figure out these things on her own, ne? "There are clues in this story" <-- Good. "There are clues and this is one of them." <-- Bad.]
That's the end of my soapboxing.
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Mr. Nescio



Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Etrien wrote:



Re: Other visual novel fans who have been posting in the thread

I agree that spoilers should be left out of these threads. However, I wish that I could do something in a case that something akin to a misunderstanding has affected a review.
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Etrien



Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 525
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:06 pm Reply with quote
Mr. Nescio wrote:
Etrien wrote:



Re: Other visual novel fans who have been posting in the thread

I agree that spoilers should be left out of these threads. However, I wish that I could do something in a case that something akin to a misunderstanding has affected a review.

If something has legitimately been misunderstood, I agree. But I didn't see Rebecca actually misunderstand anything that she wasn't meant to misunderstand. Those of us who have already finished Umineko have to remember that the story looks very different depending on if you know the answers or not. But overlooking certain things and making wrong guesses is also part of the whole Mystery genre experience, and we, the audience, are initially meant to be mislead.

Edit: Also, I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything. That was toward all the VN readers in general. Wink
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:38 pm Reply with quote
Etrien wrote:
Mr. Nescio wrote:
Etrien wrote:



Re: Other visual novel fans who have been posting in the thread

I agree that spoilers should be left out of these threads. However, I wish that I could do something in a case that something akin to a misunderstanding has affected a review.

If something has legitimately been misunderstood, I agree. But I didn't see Rebecca actually misunderstand anything that she wasn't meant to misunderstand. Those of us who have already finished Umineko have to remember that the story looks very different depending on if you know the answers or not. But overlooking certain things and making wrong guesses is also part of the whole Mystery genre experience, and we, the audience, are initially meant to be mislead.

Edit: Also, I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything. That was toward all the VN readers in general. Wink

I reread the first volume (part 1) after reading this forum and found about 3 or 4 more clues then I did the first time (I am currently in episode 6). I am not going to lie I got a bit of help from some of the comments here however some was not. I don't think it was huge....It made me appreciate the series more.
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The Human Spider



Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 334
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:37 am Reply with quote
casualfan wrote:
This is basically my first impression of the series. The story is an awesome set-up for a horror/murder mystery. Until spoiler[the witches and their super powers/servants] take over. That part just ruined the series for me, mainly cause spoiler[the family seems to have no chance of winning]. This is definitely not another Higurashi despite being in the same 'When They Cry' series.


In the first arc I thought it could be better than HIGURASHI, but every time spoiler[another witch or super-powered character got added]I started hating the show more and more. HIGURASHI was compelling because despite all the weirdness and alternate timelines there was a solid internal logic and consistancy to the show. I'll concede that maybe the point of UMINEKO is to make everything seem all random and illogical than come up with a conclusion that makes everything make sense, but I no longer care to find out.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2345
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:33 pm Reply with quote
Sorry some people just can't understand what makes umineko awesome. after all spoiler[without love it can not be seen]
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