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Hey, Answerman! [2010-02-19]


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Shale



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 337
Location: The Middle of Nowhere, DE
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:38 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm not so sure. I'd have to re-watch the movie to see if what you are saying is true or not. From what I remember, didn't the people of the valley rise up against them? Hmmm.


Not so sure?! You're the one who pointed it out!

Quote:
And heck, when the spores did come they were set upon by flamethrowers. Hardly what I'd call "living with nature".
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:49 am Reply with quote
Shale wrote:
Not so sure?! You're the one who pointed it out!


I thought you meant the people who were trying to kill the forest. My mistake.

penguintruth wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
So basically, you are arguing in favour of a gestalt-type viewpoint? Hogswash.


I'm arguing that not every little thing in fantasy is SERIOUS BUSINESS. You're over analyzing.

And that's coming from me.


No, what I am doing is responding to people who claim that Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind is a Masterpiece. I am responding to those people who applaud its pro-environmental messages. Funnily enough, there is a large overlap between the two . . .

So I completely refute your assertion that I am over-analysing. What, we can't talk about Anime anymore?
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:59 am Reply with quote
For a J-pop fix in musical video games, it might be easier to track down an arcade with Guitar Freaks and/or Drum Mania/Percussion Freaks, than wait for a Rock Band/Guitar Hero version that may never come. Then again the bigger malls around usually still have arcades. It's my understanding the arcade is pretty much dead in the U.S.

Do they ever have the Konami music games (aside from DDR) at U.S. cons?
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Wooga



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Tucson
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:08 am Reply with quote
Interestingly enough, dtm42, a lot of those inconsistencies you mentioned are in explained detail in the manga version of Nausicaa.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:21 am Reply with quote
I have to totally agree with what CJ said about Nausicca. I think dtm42 is being a bit overly specific but I think the core issue is very valid.

The people of the valley are total hypocrites. They sit back in their plot convenient valley where they're largely immune to the dangers of the toxic forest and then they proceed to tell everyone else what to do. Even with the twist that the forest is actually fixing the world, it's still hypocritical. It's fine for the people of the valley to just sit back and wait it out. However, everyone else does not have that luxury. If they don't do something soon they're all dead.

My problem with the movie goes beyond that though. It's fairly obvious that Miyazaki is trying to say something beyond the movie itself. However, this message he tries to convey is only actually justified within this extremely convenient fictional situation he has created that serves to justify the people of the valley's point of view. It just happens that the toxic forrest that is killing everyone isn't actually bad. In fact, it's saving the world! Oh and also, if you burn the forest you will literally be immediately murdered by the force of nature incarnate (the ohm). It all just comes across as an environmentalist's fantasy and as if that's not bad enough, it presents itself in a way as to imply that this view is correct in real life as well. I'm not trying to say whether it is or isn't. However, what the movie does is a pretty weak way to suggest it is.

penguintruth wrote:
I think C.J. missed the point of Princess Mononoke. It wasn't outright condemning progress. The Iron Town folks were portrayed as being just as sympathetic as the wolf tribe and the wolf tribe ever the more brutal as the Iron Town folks at times. Nature was shown as important, but so was humanity.


Exactly. This is why even though I can't stand Naussica for all the reasons CJ mentioned I consider Mononoke to be a masterpiece. It's a vastly more fair and balanced commentary. The underlying message is not that nature is some great benevolent force that actually has humanity's best interest at heart. The opposite actually. It's a frequently violent and uncaring force that unsurprisingly finds itself at odds with humanity. Naussica tries to present an easy answer to this conflict by creating a world of black and white and because of that it fails. Mononoke however simply presents the problem. The conflict between man and nature. Neither are the good guy or the bad guy. It shows that destroying each other is obviously not the solution but beyond that, who can say?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:25 am Reply with quote
Wooga wrote:
Interestingly enough, dtm42, a lot of those inconsistencies you mentioned are in explained detail in the manga version of Nausicaa.


And I've also mentioned that I don't really care (or words to that effect). The movie should be able to stand on its own; relying on the Manga to plug what are otherwise plot holes is extremely lazy (at best). It is that sort of behaviour that would prevent me from rating the movie as a Masterpiece, even if I really really loved it. I guess other people have different standards to me, but that's not relevant.
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Prede



Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 388
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:45 am Reply with quote
machetecat wrote:
Your response to the "almost" flake of the week had me rolling.

Edit: I can kinda see where the Miyazaki hater is going with this, but there are a few films he's done that I think disprove their argument. Whisper of the Heart is very much about finding your talent, and I don't really remember the girl in Only Yesterday doing a bunch of chores. Also, did The Cat Returns have any pro-earth messages in it? I had only seen it once a few years ago.

I wouldn't call Miyazaki a genius myself, I watch movies strictly for enjoyment, not to find a message, but I do think the ranter needs to look through a few more of his movies. I like the quiet, calm feel that many of his films provide. I think it's quite refreshing.


Wow I hate that studio (please don't stone me to death...) and even I know you have all your facts wrong here. Not sure if anyone corrected you, but here I go.

Whisper of the Heart (Yoshifumi Kondo) - Not directed by Miyazaki
Only Yestorday (Takahata, the Grave of the Fireflies guy) - Not directed by Miyazaki
The Cat Returns (Hiroyuki Morita the guy who directed Bokurano) - Also not Miyazaki

No offense man but I just had to correct you. And no I didn't write that response on Miyazaki. But I agree with it completley, only I would have been harsher on the guy personally. His "chores and crying" movies may not be offensive or pretentious, but they are stories not worth telling. Boring, with generic characters that he used before, pointless, and childish. Really just dumb movies. But I guess people like seeing the same thing over and over again? Also he forget to mention all the plot holes in Princess Mononoke, but I should stop while I'm behind here. I'm making enemies now. I will never understand why people like these movies...

And BTW I'm huge on the environment. But I fail to see how making terrible films about it will do any good. It may even add to pollution more because I'm really tempted to throw some of the Miyazaki DVDs right out my window.
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teh*darkness



Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 901
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:23 am Reply with quote
Hm... I must have missed seeing this question last week. Most hated part of the industry. That'd definitely be Ali Project. After one song, you've heard the extent of their musical abilities. Kinda like Kajiura Yuka, except not listenable, at all. I have this nasty habit of judging series by their OP/ED animations+themes, and anytime I hear Ali Project, I run the other direction. They're just terrible.

And while I think the Miyazaki hater went a little overboard, I do agree with the basic sentiment. I really do think he is overrated, and his movies are only considered good because they're so "non-japanese" as far as the majority of mainstream anime is concerned, and because the animation quality (not the art, which I find horrendously ugly most of the time) is top-notch.
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CocoaBurlesque



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:34 am Reply with quote
The comment about the portrayal of Americans in anime did make me laugh a little... At least the Americans get some kind of variations in their stereotypical portrayals - I'm English. And, at the moment, everyone portrays us as either Cockney gangsters or minted gentry... Now I'm not a gangster, and I don't drink tea from bone china while I sit waiting for my butler to deliver the mail on a silver tray... Not that I mind though. Stereotypes are funny, and for the most part (and I stress, only for the most part) just used for comedy. Sure, sometimes it's a little offensive, but there's a whole lot worse stuff going on in the world right?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:39 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

And I've also mentioned that I don't really care (or words to that effect). The movie should be able to stand on its own; relying on the Manga to plug what are otherwise plot holes is extremely lazy (at best). It is that sort of behaviour that would prevent me from rating the movie as a Masterpiece, even if I really really loved it. I guess other people have different standards to me, but that's not relevant.


I asked you a very relevant question back there about whether or not you could appreciate a piece of science fiction or fantasy even if you didn't immediately find the scenario practical. I'm not trolling you here, I'd like an answer to that question.
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Wooga



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Tucson
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:06 am Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
It may even add to pollution more because I'm really tempted to throw some of the Miyazaki DVDs right out my window.

Laughing
I'll have to admit right now too that I hate, well, roughly half of the Ghibli films. Spirited Away you could tell he was just making it up as he went. I babysat some kids and their dvd player had a parental lock on it, so it was the only movie we could play, and I almost fell asleep. I like the dragon though.

Princess Mononoke started of cool but the end part was a little boring. Ponyo is an OK children's movie I guess.

Miyazaki is good with animation and directing flight scenes, but his writing is never truly linear.

I do like Kiki's Delivery Service though, I found it cute.

Castle of Cagliostro had some great action scenes too, even though Lupin himself was neutered compared dto the manga version. And Fujiko lasts about ten seconds. Miyazaki can't do sexy I guess Laughing


I think the enjoyment of the movies has to do with, call it your level of 'empathy'. Not that people who hate these movies are cold heartless bastards, just that if you do not connect with the characters, you will find them intensely boring.
It reminds me of a trial of an Aleph member. In his defense he said that he cried during a Ghibli movie, and that proved he was still human and had a soul Laughing

So no, I do not find Nausicaa a masterpiece or Miyazaki to be a genius, and I'm not going to force anyone to believe this, but for what they are (children's movies) they're not bad. I thought (for being a Japanese movie from the 80's) Nausicaa was a strong female character without rubbing it in the audience's face. At least I can watch them with my mom. Wink

I just wish that more animation directors could get the same sized budget so easily.
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YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 1061
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:21 am Reply with quote
Yeah, that last guy was definitely a flake. I don't know how super-deformed cutesy anime relates to how Sucessful Dragonball was. He must LOVE that anime if he's digging in domain registries just to find out about it.
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Gilles Poitras



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 476
Location: Oakland California
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:45 am Reply with quote
For those of you comparing the anime and manga versions of Nausicaa you should be aware that only the beginning of the manga was done before the anime. Then a decade passed before Miyazaki picked up the story and wrote the rest of it.

In that time period his view of the tale shifted greatly and the manga became a very different work.
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Wrial Huden



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 149
Location: McKinney, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:43 am Reply with quote
I don't know if this could be considered bizarre or even negative, but what about the potrayal of Tina Foster in Ai Yori Aoshi?

Your average Japanese viewer would be inclined to think that American women are hard-drinking and love to squeeze each other's boobs...
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:00 am Reply with quote
According to anime and manga I've seen, Americans walk around naked in front of each other, kiss each other on the lips as a common greeting, and have ovoid watermelons.

It's not always wrong.

If anyone has a particular interest in this kind of thing, you may want to consider watching Motto Ojamajo Doremi (will never be licensed, being fansubbed now), which is to a signifigant degree about a Japanese girl who was raised in America returning to Japan. Interestingly, the character's voice actress is actually fluent in English.

poonk wrote:
Whenever I think of how Americans are portrayed in anime I always think of episode 14 of Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro wherein a seemingly harmless if overenthusiastic American guy enthralled with Japanese culture, when Neuro (via Yako) reveals spoiler[him to be the murderer, turns into a big (like, phallically-long)-nosed psycho brandishing a gun (another phallic symbol) and reveals his true nature-- which was the desire to dominate, as demonstrated by his treatment of a Japanese woman he was pursuing. He was a very "nice guy" on the surface but actually wanted to control her and was angry that she wouldn't submit. ] It's not a very flattering portrayal but I personally didn't find it offensive because I saw it as more of a metaphor for a type of American rather than Americans at large.

I don't know, it sounds kinda like spoiler[the usual "those foreigners are after our women!" stuff you hear in most countries.]
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