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Hey, Answerman! [2010-02-19]


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Stretch24



Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:17 am Reply with quote
When it comes to real-live, non-cyber people, I pretty much keep my anime hobby to myself. The only anime clothing I wear is a Speed Racer shirt (which I got as a gift, and that show is pretty mainstream anyhow). On my birthdays (when there's sort of an obligation for my sisters and brothers-in-law to grant my modest wishes), I used to ask my family members to watch a couple episodes of anime with me. But it soon became clear that nobody was particularly enjoying them, and I gave it up. I have a friend who I've known since long before I discovered anime, and when he comes over the shelves full of anime DVDs and VHS tapes are obvious. But the only series I've managed to get him to watch are Gunbuster and Ebichu(!). Once I visited a local anime club, but my impression was that all the people there did was watch shows together without discussing them much or doing much of anything that I couldn't do alone. So I never went back. I went to four anime conventions, but I didn't know anybody there and again it seemed that little happened which couldn't be done on the internet. Maybe things would have gone better if I had learned about the conventions back before they became (so I hear) considered by most attendees to be little more than giant parties. I wanted to learn something interesting about anime, not fool around. The only other example of myself displaying my interest in anime to neighborhood people would be when I used to display Jack-o-lanterns which I had carved with images of anime characters at Halloween. Those drew some compliments, but nobody seemed to recognize any of them or show any interest when I explained them. Last year I didn't bother to make a new one. Basically, my conclusion is that ordinary people aren't interested in anime and I'm only wasting my time trying to entice them. That's OK with me, I sort of like the "secretness" of anime, and I have a number of cyberfriends who like it as well.

For some reason this thought came to mind as I wrote: Have you noticed how anime fans seem to go through two phases? New ones are fascinated by anime, it's a revolutionary new media, each new show seems the best one yet, and they are in a state of bliss. But over time the freshness wears off, you realise how repetitive it is, and how just like anywhere else the '90% is crap' rule applies. I'm kind of in a slump anime-wise, because I've passed over into this second stage. I thought my standards were pretty low, but they seem infinitely higher than a lot of people out there. People seem offended when I criticise Code Geass (or whatever)--almost as if I've personally insulted them. Do they draw the implication that if they liked a modest show that would make them modest people? What gives?

Maybe the bulk of otaku are in the early phase, and resent criticism of all but the most terrible shows. I remember I used to wonder why the professional critics seemed to feel that they had to complain so much. Perhaps once a person starts to transform into the second, more jaded phase, a lot of them drop anime altogether.
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4796
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:20 pm Reply with quote
Ahhh, political invasion killing all the anime talk! Ewww.

ikillchicken wrote:
You're contradicting yourself though. You insist that we shouldn't judge it by today's standards but then you also insist that it is still relevant today. So which is it? If you want to say that it was a significant movie with a major impact then fine. I wouldn't deny that. It doesn't mean it was actually all that good though. If you're going to claim that it still stands on it's own today though...well then explain why. Aside from your unsupported claim that it's message is still relevant you've offered nothing to explain your view.


Eh, I think I just wasn’t being clear. But I can see where you get I might be a bit self-contradicting. I don’t see insisting you don’t judge it to the same standards you do today when you judge newer, animated films as being the same as saying the message in Nausicaa not still relevant just because it’s an older movie.

By not judging it by today’s standards I mean don’t compare it to flashier, larger budgeted films of today. Without Nausicaa it’s very likely animation today wouldn’t be what it is today. Think of what Ghilbi, would be without Nausicaa? Would Mononoke even come into being if we never had it? And it might be a bit of a stretch to some, but even Disney animation in the 90s may not have been what it was without a film such as Nausicaa. Yes, Nausicaa was never in the mainstream, but animators knew of Nausicaa’s existence, and there have been many Disney animators that credit Nausicaa as a major influence on their wanting to become animators.

But anyway, as to why I think the message is still relevant I’ll give it a shot, especially since I seem to look at Nausicaa slightly different than some if the Answerman rant is anything to go by.

First I’ll start out with why I don’t think Mononoke is a rehash of themes from Nausicaa.

To begin, Mononoke is the story about mankind’s move away from nature. It takes place in the past, and showed how the progress of mankind could be a burden in coexisting with nature. Mankind’s progress in technology takes it away from nature, killing nature. It’s inevitable with us. When you’re done watching Mononoke either makes you think about how we've progressed since, and if we need to try coexisting with nature more, or makes you just accept it for how things are. In the end I found Mononoke to be about mankind destroying nature.

Nausicaa seems to have the same moral at the end of its story, but I find there to be more to it.

Nausicaa takes place over 1000 years into the future after mankind has pretty much destroyed the world with their self-destructive tendencies. The world is not a pristine Eden like in Mononoke where people take nature for granted, instead with Nausicaa the world is a barren wasteland brought about by something like a nuclear holocaust, caused by the Warriors Gods, weapons made by humans. Mankind brought about the collapse of civilization on their own with war among themselves, and in the process they’ve made it so very little can survive, humans and nature. Nature was just a casualty in mankind’s war with itself. Where Mononoke’s setting was a an actual war with nature, Nausicaa is about humans struggling among themselves with what they have created. The story follows Nausicaa trying to understand why the world is the way it is, and how they could fix it.

I never found Nausicaa to be a story about the evils of technology; I found it to be about the evils of war, mankind’s nature to destroy, and in the end a chance at redemption for mankind.

In this barren wasteland of a world where people fight among themselves, we have Kushana, a warrior princess. She was much beloved by her people, but a vicious woman to her enemies, but still, she did what she did with the intent to protect her people. To do this she thought she needed an ancient weapon of mass destruction.

On the opposite end we have Nausicaa, also beloved by her people, but a pacifist. She strives to make sense of what she doesn’t understand, but she works to protect her people, and in the end she represents peace, be it with other humans or nature. So in this story we have two very strong women, both brilliant and loved by their people, but with two very different ideas on how to protect their people.

From that description of the two female leads of the story I’m purposely leaving out the “Nausicaa is a tree hugger” sentiment. Why? Because unlike the person from the rant, I don’t think Nausicaa put nature before everything else. I don’t think she was a girl who thought the suffering of a tree was more important than the suffering of her people. She had a responsibility to her people, a will to understand, and in the end it made a scientist out of Nausicaa. She wanted to understand the threat to her people (what leader doesn’t?), so that led her to work to understand her peoples’ enemies, even grow sympathetic with them, be it people or nature. She put her people first, and didn’t care for plants as much as people make her out to be. To support this I’ll point out she abandoned her laboratory with the harmless plants she was studying when she had to leave the valley. She killed them by cutting off their water supply and light.

Understanding your enemy and finding common ground was the main moral I got from Nausicaa, but it’s hidden away in the obvious references to coexisting with nature. Kushana didn’t understand her enemies, the people from other valleys feared other people, the people feared the toxic forest, and the creatures in it, all because they didn’t understand anything.

Basically the moral I got from Nausicaa was misunderstanding arising from ignorance breeds fear, and fear remains the greatest enemy of peace. I find it relevant to today as we’re facing a possible nuclear arms race in the mid-east, and debate whether ensuring a healthy environment in the future is worth the cost to the economy today. Then there's the oceans being poisoned, forest are being turned to desert wasteland, etc, etc…
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:01 pm Reply with quote
Prede wrote:
gingi789 wrote:

Another thing that makes him a genius is that his films can appeal to people who aren't into anime. That applied with Princess Mononoke to a lesser extent, and Spirited Away to a greater one. Granted, Ponyo had problems, but we're judging him on the whole of his work, not just one movie. And i fail to see the enviornmentalist message in Kiki's Delivery Service and Porco Rosso. And frankly, before Spirited Away, how many anime films won academy awards?


Just because his terrible films appeal to people who don't like anime (many who apparently don't have good tatest) does not mean they are good. Good for the industry...not good films. Afro Samurai is pretty good at appealing to the mainstream, but that's a terrible show. I feel you have look hard for the really good stuff, which is a real shame. I wish some of the masterpeices were more well known, but very rarely does a real peice of art become popular. Kino's Journey is a great example, that's a masterpeice on every level yet it sold terribly. I sure wish more people were into shows like that...


I've seen Kino's Journey, and i liked it. Masterpiece? Well, i guess that's as subjective as anyones tastes would be. I will say that it probably didn't sell well because: A) it's a very episodic show, and B) There aren't any clear protagonists and antagonists. It is a show that, more or less, chronicles Kino's journey. For example, take episode 2. Once the plot twist is revealed, Kino deals with it and moves on. There isn't a long battle, or a lot of dramatic talking. I liked that episode, but at the same time, that type of storytelling would make the series a niche series.

I do understand the sentiment, though. I thought that Elfen Lied was a masterpiece-pretty animation, good storytelling, engaging characters-but when i ask people about it, i just get blank stares.

I wish you would have said exactly how his movies (specifically the two i mentioned) were terrible. Animation? Keep in mind that this was in 1997 and 2001- if you want anime for comparison, try Martian Successor Nadesico, Generator Gawl, and Tenchi in Tokyo-it is leaps and bounds above those. As for plot holes, i've yet to find many liveaction movies without them-so i'm willing to forgive one or two from Miyazaki. I think he does a good job of telling a clear story, and making that story appeal to people who've never seen anime, or think all anime is is giant robots, pokemon, and dragonball z.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:50 pm Reply with quote
I would love to respond to you PetrifiedJello about how blind and deaf you are regarding America's position in the world, and how I wasn't writing fiction when I said that America's hegemony was already at an end. However, Keonyn asked in a nice way that we end this political discussion and I will abide by that instruction.

PetrifiedJello wrote:
Zac asked you a valid question a while ago, and you've yet to address this. I wanted to read your response before I ripped apart all your inaccuracies. Otherwise, it would have been pointless to do so as you'd simply dismiss them with a "meh... whatever" type of reply.


Okay, I promise I won't dismiss your post with a "meh... whatever" type of reply. So go ahead and rip apart all my inaccuracies that you can find. I'm not saying that they aren't there, and I'm not saying that they are. But you need not worry about my response.
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Apollo-kun



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1213
Location: City 7, Macross 7
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Kayu1111 wrote:
I'm sorry, I just don't know what kind of asshat can take a look around the world of contemporary animation and NOT appreciate Miyazaki. I really, really, really don't.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to not watch something like "Castle in the Sky",
or "Nausicca", or "Princess Mononoke" and NOT be blown away. The guy's a master of his craft.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Apollo-kun wrote:
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to not watch something like "Castle in the Sky"...


That movie isn't a snorefest, but it was undoubtedly boring. Not bad by any means but not worth the money I paid for it. Why people such as Makoto Shinkai adore it I will never know. I guess it was a more innocent time or something?
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4796
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:48 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Apollo-kun wrote:
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to not watch something like "Castle in the Sky"...


That movie isn't a snorefest, but it was undoubtedly boring. Not bad by any means but not worth the money I paid for it. Why people such as Makoto Shinkai adore it I will never know. I guess it was a more innocent time or something?


Dear Dtm42,

You know what? I'm sorry to inform you of this, since I'm sure you have a high opinion of yourself, but I'm finding you to be incredibly boring. Seriously, right now I'm trying to stay awake reading your responses, searching in vain for some sort of basis or substance to your statements, but the effort is making the experience a total snorefest for me. Really... my eye lids feel so heavy! I also hate to tell you this, but I rather marathon all of Miyazaki's movies, from my most loved to most hated, than have to read another mindless, negative response from you.

If it's beyond your comprehension as to why an animator you apparently idolize likes Laputa, maybe you should go read some of his interviews on the matter or something. Maybe, just maybe we'll all get lucky and it'll enlighten you somehow, opening your mind and allowing you to look at a movie and actually notice good aspects, even if they don't appeal to you, to a movie instead of just the bad (you should write a list of both and share them with us! Very Happy) If not, it can at least give more meat to your comment on why you hate Laputa.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening. I guess we're just cursed to be bored forever.

Love,
Littlegreenwolf

p.s. Opinions are not fact. Especially yours.
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lkmjr



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 68
Location: Austin, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:25 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Apollo-kun wrote:
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to not watch something like "Castle in the Sky"...


That movie isn't a snorefest, but it was undoubtedly boring. Not bad by any means but not worth the money I paid for it. Why people such as Makoto Shinkai adore it I will never know. I guess it was a more innocent time or something?


How exactly was it "boring"? I'm not going to immediately shoot down your opinion, though I heartily disagree, but if you're going to complain about something like this at least tell us exactly what you thought was boring about it. If you give us a reason we might agree or discover that you have unexpectedly managed to make a valid point, but if you don't we aren't likely to believe you.

In any case, I personally thoroughly enjoyed Laputa and fail to see what you found so uninteresting about it.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Okay. While we are being so civil:



Dear littlegreenwolf,

First of all, my username is dtm42. It is just a minor thing, but my obsessive-compulsive self is bugged by it. In the future could you please remember to type it correctly? Thank you for your understanding on this matter.

Secondly, I am deeply saddened by you finding me boring. I do try and liven up the forums; it just gets so stale here at times. However, I am puzzled by your continued insistence on reading my posts if you find them so boring as to induce a sort of narcolepsy. And may I take it that if you are reading this post it would indicate that you have indeed watched all of Miyazaki's movies beforehand? Did I get that right?

I commend you on the devious plan you developed. Either I have to watch all of Castle in the Sky again, a movie you know I don't much care for. Or I do not, in which case you can continue to spiel the whole tired argument of "You'll like it more on the re-watch", or whatever you were trying to say. I confess I wasn't too sure. At any rate, it is a lose-lose situation for me. Needless to say, I will not be spending one-hundred and twenty-four minutes of my life - more if I take notes so I can write a detailed post - just for me to re-watch the movie. Time is short, and there are far more interesting Anime out there, most of which I haven't seen yet.

Lastly, I agree in principle that opinions are not facts (quantum theory aside*). However, by your own definition, your opinion that my opinions are especially lacking in factuality is of course not a fact. You shoot yourself in the foot - or is that paw? - I'm afraid.

Kind regards,
dtm42



P.S. You should really see a doctor about that narcolepsy and paw. I worry about you.



*
If you don't know what I mean by that, send me a PM and I'll be happy to enlighten you further.
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ljaesch



Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Enumclaw, WA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:41 pm Reply with quote
When it comes to my anime fandom, I don't try to hide it, but I'm not really trying to shove it into other people's faces, either. Probably the closest I cometo "shoving it in other people's faces" is in my Facebook profile (listing anime as an interest and becoming a fan of some of the anime fanpages at FB). Outside of the anime DVDs that I own, my main other anime-related thing would be my Voltron T-shirt that I got when my husband purchased copy of the Voltron Volume 5 DVD box set (the one with the Black Lion on it).

Funny story about that shirt. About two years ago, I think it was, I wore my Voltron T-shirt when our family went to pick up my daughter from a Girl Scout event. One of the other moms (and co-president of our school's PTA at the time) saw my shirt and exclaimed, "Where did you get Voltron shirt? I want a Voltron shirt, too!"
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:20 pm Reply with quote
I like how neither dtm42 nor Prede have specifically explained why they don't like Miyazaki's films even after being asked.

dtm42 wrote:
However, by your own definition, your opinion that my opinions are especially lacking in factuality is of course not a fact. You shoot yourself in the foot - or is that paw? - I'm afraid.
Not all opinions are equally reasoned and supported, bro. Suffice to say, there's not much muscle, fat or even skin to the ones you've espoused here -- just bones.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:58 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
I like how neither dtm42 nor Prede have specifically explained why they don't like Miyazaki's films even after being asked.


I won't speak for Prede (as (s)he doesn't need me to defend themself), but I have given a few specific examples of what I didn't like. Might want to re-read the thread, buddy.

HellKorn wrote:
Not all opinions are equally reasoned and supported, bro. Suffice to say, there's not much muscle, fat or even skin to the ones you've espoused here -- just bones.


I never thought you could make a food analogy about opinions, but it appears I was wrong.

Here's an example of an opinion:

I think puppies are cute.

An opinion to be sure, and yet what more is there to explain? Or to argue? Do I need to go into detail regarding how their big trusting eyes and fuzzy little muzzles make them a given value of cute? No, I don't.

Now to Castle in the Sky being boring. Why should I have to explain myself? Is my opinion any less valid just because I didn't bother going into minute detail as to how it bored me? Of course not. Just because it might be a minority opinion doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong, just that more people disagree with me than about the puppies.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:27 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I won't speak for Prede (as (s)he doesn't need me to defend themself), but I have given a few specific examples of what I didn't like. Might want to re-read the thread, buddy.
Those "examples" consisted of one post dismissing some of his output as "feel-good movies that have no depth and if you see any YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELVES" and the rest as put-downs concerning the Nausicaä anime movie, to which people shot those explanations down. It basically boils down to you describing Miyazaki as being a man-hating luddite, which is such a serious misinterpretation of his work that I feel that you may have subconsciously created it as some sort of justification to hate most of his work. Unless you think the rest of the world crazy for calling you out on it, you should probably consider that you might be wrong about what messages he sends. Try again, buddy.

Quote:
Now to Castle in the Sky being boring. Why should I have to explain myself? Is my opinion any less valid just because I didn't bother going into minute detail as to how it bored me? Of course not. Just because it might be a minority opinion doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong, just that more people disagree with me than about the puppies.
Because we are in a discussion thread where people are asking you why you dislike what you do. No one is obligated to love or hate any piece of entertainment, but if you want to be taken seriously, especially on a public forum where people want to know the reasons behind your opinion, then you should probably answer. Even moreso for a director that has the type of acclaim and appreciation that Miyazaki receives. That does matter because, like Prede does, saying that millions of people -- some of whom are far more versed in film theory and animation theory than he is -- are wrong and have bad taste isn't exactly productive, and neither is just saying over and over again that you dislike something for some unspecified reason, despite people asking you to clarify why.

If you want to have a discussion, then discuss it. Value judgments are jumping points, not landing pads.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:38 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

An opinion to be sure, and yet what more is there to explain? Or to argue? Do I need to go into detail regarding how their big trusting eyes and fuzzy little muzzles make them a given value of cute? No, I don't.

Now to Castle in the Sky being boring. Why should I have to explain myself? Is my opinion any less valid just because I didn't bother going into minute detail as to how it bored me? Of course not. Just because it might be a minority opinion doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong, just that more people disagree with me than about the puppies.


As Hellkorn already said, this is a discussion forum, not a place for you to pop a squat and produce a one-liner value judgment about a pretty universally beloved film without ever having to explain why.

We have rules against that kind of thing and I'm more than happy to enforce them.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:50 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn, you completely missed my point. Not surprising, I might add. You want me to explain why Castle in the Sky was boring? Where do I start? The problem is not that there is too much but too little. I said before that there are some emotions and feelings so basic that you can't really explain them. Like thinking a puppy is cute. Or thinking that a particular movie is boring. What about the movie was boring? Umm, everything? Why was it boring? Umm, because I felt bored?

And what do you care if I properly explain myself? What do you care? You are threatening to come across as being concerned for my reputation and safety, given how hard you try to get me to explain myself so that my opinion will be taken seriously. Or does me not telling you make you annoyed on a personal level?

Oh, and I'm not the only one who thinks Miyazaki portrayed humanity and technology too unfairly in Nausicaa of the the Valley of the Wind. I also did not say that people should not watch those "feel-good" movies; look at my reply to C.J. on page one. You sure like making false accusations, and if you don't then I am clueless as to why you do so.
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