Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2010-02-26]
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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@new business models
Uh, I'm a little less inclined to agree with some of the logic used here. If you buy a series without watching the streams, then you most likely would have bought it anyway. If you wouldn't buy the series regardless of streaming, then you really cannot count this as a lost sale. If you watch the stream and buy the DVDs, then the strategy (as far as I can tell) has worked. If you watched the stream but still didn't buy the DVDs, then there are probably other factors at work. But, it doesn't necessarily mean that that failing to buy a physical product after viewing the digital is an infinitely lost sale or the person wasn't going to spend any money anyway. Streaming the entire thing online for virtually free and then charging for DVDs does seem like asking to buy the farm when you get the milk for free. But I think there is a paradox that media companies have to face now and that's the fact that due to us living in the Information Age, information (whether news, entertainment, etc.) has become plentiful and therefore, cheap. Sure, there are a number of controls in place to slow the process of media revenues falling faster than Enron stock in 2001 but since things simply aren't the same as they used to be. With the increase of streaming, I think if anime companies wish to retain profitability, I think they're going to have to alter their business model, which means they're going to have to apply some pressure to the Japanese and who knows how that will go. With the "giving the milk away for free" model, I think an adaptation of the Free/Open Source Software model is going to be the best way for midterm stability and profitability. For those not familiar with the F/OSS model, I'm going to follow a company named Red Hat who pretty much defined the model. When you think of a software company, like Adobe or Microsoft or even the old Apple, their revenue (or a part thereof) came from the production and sale of software. In the 1980s, there were some crazy people who felt that software should be designed to be "free", some people more for ideological reasons and others for financial reasons. When the Linux kernel was written, it was written to comply with a lot of the free software principles. While Red Hat was not the first use the Linux kernel to create a Linux-based, Unix-like operating system, it was one of the first to take it to a commercial venture. The primer is kinda long and round-about, and I've tried to shorten it, but here is where the comparison comes into play. By basing their operating system on open sourced software solutions, Red Hat was under legal pressure/obligation to release the code and essentially their product for free. They then developed alternate revenue streams - you could get the OS on diskette for the cost of physical materials and shipping but if you wanted support, we'll sell that to you. Hell, if you wanted to give us more money, we'll even train and certify your staff. Even better, you don't want to build your own boxes? We'll do that, too! Eventually, Red Hat began releasing their open source version via an OS called Fedora while retaining Red Hat Enterprise Linux with Red Hat Network for sale to corporate entities. While it may seem like nickel and diming someone, they have proven that reducing core product costs and selling a service to meet multiple customer demands/requests; for someone who just wants a server OS for free, they can grab Fedora or CentOS or any other Red Hat based distribution from BitTorrent and no one cares. That is, essentially, what FUNimation and others pursuing streaming are doing. Their core product (cartoons) is being given away for free (by streaming). Sure, there's some revenue via advertising. The one point in where their model has yet to mature is capturing the DVD sales portion. Essentially, there needs to be a separate level of product for a separate consumer. Joe Schmuckatelli who just watched it on streams may just be a fan who would like to have a DVD set but they don't want any frills - just a cartoon. Why not release a no-frills, barebones DVD set for practically dirt cheap? Why not cater to our version of the Otaku market with a primo, limited edition, superfans box for more money? Why not release a boxset onto the market first (like AnimEigo did) or accompany them with the streams, rather than waiting for later? And finally, there comes the harsh truth - sometimes a product just isn't worth paying for (which is very extreme) but more likely (rationally), I don't agree with what you're selling the product for. There's probably some issues with rights holders keeping a lot of this from happening, which is unfortunate but I cannot believe that as small as the North American industry is, no one else has looked around at what someone is doing differently. If I, as an arm-chair executive, Internet forum-poster, thought of this and connected the dots before anyone else, I'll be shocked and amazed. Mostly because I just posted this for free and am missing one fat consulting check.  But then again, a lot of this dot-connecting seems pretty simple and logical to me, so if no one else thought of it, maybe the industry is deserving of its current situation.
@open about anime I used to wear anime shirts, carry manga or magazines with me, talk to people who asked about it, etc. when I was in middle and high school. Now a days though, not so much. It's not that I'm above that or ashamed of it, it's just not the perception I want to convey to others when I am out and about or meeting new people. I mean, I don't wear shirts that say "I read your email" or "No, I won't fix your computer." or "Eat salmon, the other pink meat." Those are all reserved for relaxing or doing work around the house. When I'm out, it depends on where I am going but it's usually semi-casual. People can easily surmise that I am an anime fan when they come to the house; tons of DVDs and a crate of LaserDiscs near the television, manga on my end table that I am reading, model robots in my office and theatrical posters and advertisements in my library. My friends obviously know, even if not all of them are into anime. My parents gave me some grief about it until I had gotten a little older and showed some degree of restraint and responsibility about my hobby (and they realized it wasn't going away...). And then there's the conventions. And the podcast. And the forum posting. So, while it's not out-there-in-your-face, get to know me and you'll probably realize that Japanese cartoons are one of my "things".
I also didn't read the question that way. While I think the question is loaded, I don't think it's loaded in same manner that "different is always good, derivative is always bad." The bane of my previous art classes is the concept that the art is the opinion of the beholder and cannot qualitatively be defined.
I think some of the best discussion can come out of shitstorm questions although you will most likely have a poor signal to noise ratio.
All of those have striking artistic qualities that could be discussed and even debated. I also happen to think the majority of that list is trash. I hope, based on the submissions that are posted next week, that Brian gets some responses that match what he was intending rather than a vague wandering and meandering through "interpretations". It'll essentially be a digital version of a panel I attended at a convention called "Art House Anime", where I expected to be introduced to little known, not widely publicized or discussed animations. Instead, the host of the panel decided that "art house" to her did not match a stereotypical definition of "art house" and it wound up being a discussion of what was "different and unique" among panelists and audience, including several high profile and commercially successful works being discussed. Good luck, Brian; I hope you get some answers to publish to get what you're looking for! |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Now, I know you're not trying to troll us because the rest of your quite lengthy post was well written and thought out, but did you have to throw that in there? |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I think SalarymanJoe was just further proving his point that art is all opinion. There is no set line of what is and isn't art, and like he pointed out, what he called trash he also thought to have artistic qualities. And I agree, most of those I wouldn't consider "art" either by my own definition, but if you look at something long enough you can usually find something to appreciate in my experience. Randomly off the top of my head anime I'd consider "art house" would be titles like Angel's Egg, Revolutionary Girl Utena, FLCL, Paprika, Gankutsuou, Haibane Renmei, End of Eva, Boogiepop Phantom etc. Mainly I'm just posting titles I consider to be either thought provoking, edgy in how the present their story and experiment with animation, or just all together something mesmerizing to watch. |
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SalarymanJoe
Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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Yeah, littlegreewolf gets it. To expound fruther, very rarely is there a tie between artistic talent and quality, especially when the matter boils down to entertainment and communicating a message to a viewer. Each of those titles that coldspider mentioned all have some artisitc merit - whether in story, animation or overall craft; some may be able to be debated more than others (I know I've had my fair share of craft debates with Evangelion) but each can be debated and critiqued. However, criticism does not always influence my overall feeling for a show.
I remember mentioning Angel's Egg and Robot Carnival during the discussion and I felt bad about it because I thought they were too well known. Sure, when I think of something I would see in an art house theater, I'm thinking low-budget and radical in some aspect; something like Angel's Egg, Robot Carnival or early Shinkai works (Hoshi no Koe and Kumo no Mukou, Yakusoku no Basho specifically) would be what I would consider on the fringe of successful art house. I also remembering other audience and panelists throwing stuff like Gankutsuou and Utena around and I was just perplexed; both were fairly successful television animations and Utena was successful enough for a theatrical release not to mention they both received widespread praise amongst anime fandom in North America. I'm not saying there wasn't anything unique or even edgy, etc. about them or letting some of my personal opinions get involved but I just wouldn't consider them as art house because they just didn't match my perception or expectation. I mean, I'm not really a huge Oshii fan but I think he did a lot of really interesting things in Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer conceptually and directorally. But I'd never consider it art house. It's Urusei Yatsura for Christ's sake! |
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merr
Posts: 467 |
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And as I said in the other thread, that simply isn't true for people like me. Example: I watched the first 10 episodes of Bamboo Blade online. I loved the series and was all set to buy it. Later on, watched the remaining episodes on Funimations video portal and was still just as much in love with the show. But that particular month, I only had 100 dollars to spend on anime. Ultimately, I decided to spend that money on a show that I hadn't seen all the way through (One Piece in this case), because to me, those episodes were worth more because there was no way for me to see them online legally. (Funimation later posted all those one piece eps online, making my decision kind of moot, but whatever.) The point is, having the full series streaming online makes me less likely to purchase DVDs that I would have bought otherwise. When the show is available for free, the relative value of the DVDs goes down in my eyes. I'd rather spend my money a show that I can't watch the entirety of for free, because that way I'm getting more bang for my buck. I'm not just paying for a show that I've seen all the way through. I'm paying for a show that I know I enjoy, and I'm also getting the excitement of seeing episodes that are entirely new to me. In my case then, streaming makes it less likely that I'll buy the DVD. This has nothing to do with discovering that a show actually sucks after you've streamed the whole thing. When you get right down to it, if I have to pick between two shows, one where I've seen every episode online for free, and one where I've only seen a few episodes but not the entire thing, I'll pick the latter. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I understand what you’re getting at, but I’m not going to hold it against an anime just because it’s a commercialized product, mainly because there’s very little in anime that isn’t out to make a profit. Art house type films are usually independent and low budgeted, but they’re for a niche audience looking for something outside of the typical Holly Wood escapism plot of some clear point or goal. Anime is a weird thing to bring up in this category because we fans in general are a niche audience to begin with. That said there are a lot of anime that go about with the same typical plot lines, predictable, and formulaic, and they’re entertaining while you watch them, but then they end and that’s just it, leaving you not a lot of think about. The titles I listed were because they for the most part they present some social realism, present the story in some interesting new style of narrative, visually express emotions in a way we don’t usually see, or just straight out look like an experiment in animation and visual illusion, all of which are aspects I believe to be in spirit of art house cinema. Denying an anime to be in the spirit of art house because it has a large budget, or is from a well-known animation studio, is just wrong to me because I see there to be more to the definition of what art house is outside of low budget creativity. I’m honestly surprised you thought Angel’s Egg to be too well known. I only came across it because I was interested in Yoshitaka Amano, and it took me weeks to get ahold of a copy. And to brush off Utena because of its success is just bizarre for me because I see it as the very definition of radical as it pushed the boundaries of anime for the time. Then again I’m known to be incredibly biased with Utena. Last edited by littlegreenwolf on Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lys
 Posts: 1008 Location: mitten-state |
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As to twins:
I actually thought they were somewhat common in anime and manga... maybe it's just the series I read. Besides Ouran, which has been discussed, there's the classic shoujo manga Cipher, which focuses a LOT on a pair of twins who, at the beginning of the series, are sort of living as one person (sharing an acting career). The series really gets into the reasons for why they do this and the implications and how they move beyond that stage of their life. It's definitely worth checking out. Papillon from DelRey is also about a pair of identical twins with dissimilar personalities. Banri Hidaka has a pair of identical AND a pair of fraternal twins as side characters in Tears of a Lamb—they aren't the main focus of the story, but even so we do get to see a fair amount of depth in their characterization. Actually, the same author has a series coming out in Japan (Berry Berry) about identical twins, but I don't know a lot about it. She seems to have a thing for interesting, somewhat complex twins. And if you're into parody, Ai Morinaga's My Heavenly Hockey Club pokes fun at the concept of identical twins in manga/anime (while poking fun at pretty much everything else as well) with two of the Hockey Club members, Kinta and Ginta (who weren't even given first names until a few volumes in). I know a fair number of identical twins (two of my brothers are), so I was also a bit surprised to hear what a small percentage of the population they make up. Actually, I think it's fraternal twins that I've hardly ever met. |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4469 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I'm not really a fan of any anime that's all that experimental. Or, at least, I don't watch very much of it. I think the last "experimental" anime film I saw was Mind Game, which left me very underwhelmed compared to the anime message board hype. (Mind Game shared some similarities to my all-time favourite anime film, Urusei Yatsura: Beautiful Dreamer in that both seem to be rooted in the Urashima Taro myth, but Tomobiki-cho is just a much more appealing place to be stranded compared to the place the Mind Game characters spend the majority of the film.)
The last "experimental" anime to do much of anything for me was Windy Tales, and that had a fairly straightforward slice-of-life story with a slight fantasy twist, it's just that the art style was significantly different from your typical anime. In anime, like any other entertaiment medium, I tend to prefer my stories to be straightforward and I don't see anything wrong with my preference. In anime specifically, I tend to prefer slice-of-life stories where I neither need nor want my mind to be "blown" with unconventional plot structures and twists. |
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coldspider
 Posts: 187 |
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^And that's more or less the issue here.I think the answerfan question is phrased incorrectly,and ikillchicken and Tamaria here posed better questions.The "safe and predictable" part just seems unnecessary and sounds a bit insulting. But like I said,I think I know what Answerman is talking about.I'm surprised no one else has brought up Spring and Chaos,I actually saw it ten years ago at a small anime event held at the L.A. Central Library.
Which is why I picked all those titles in the first place,since each one can cause such polarizing opinions.But who's right? And who's wrong? Last edited by coldspider on Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rikchik
 Posts: 3 |
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I think the reason we don't see many realistic twins in anime is that if you don't play off the twinness, either by making the characters very similar or very different, there's no reason to make the characters twins in the first place. I'm a twin but most of my coworkers don't know my twin so it doesn't make much difference to them. I think a realistic portrayal would be to have character A mention that they're a twin and for the other characters to say, "huh. Didn't know that" and move on. But that doesn't really advance the story or change A's characterization, so why bother?
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loka
 Posts: 373 Location: Pittsburgh, PA |
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yeah, I was more open to watching artsy stuff before I went ahead and saw Tekkon Kinkreet.
The two Genius Party movies helped bring up my expectations, though. And I'm definitely open to watching something 'a bit different' than my preferences. Last one was Summer Days with Coo. |
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GWOtaku
 Posts: 678 |
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I think streaming can and does lead to DVD sales, at least some of the time. It's no different from renting a title and deciding that you would like to own it for yourself. And streaming, as great as it is, is not a complete substitute for watching a favored show on my 32 inch HD television. Especially if we're talking about a recent title that is being released in true HD, a thing which will become the norm not too long from now.
Yeah, maybe the kids won't or don't buy (I'm 27). But you know what, they grow up and end up with more disposable income. In the meantime, they're delivering some ad revenue. And honestly, how many fourteen year olds with very limited income would FUNimation have buying more often if they were not streaming? Ultimately, we're still talking about young teens with limited income. They don't want to potentially waste money by buying something blind that they might not like. Who would? The great thing about "try before you buy" is that it helps the consumer purchase with confidence. So yes, I think streaming helps generate interest, and if a show is excellent there will be incentive to buy. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood has been streaming online since it began its run in Japan. I wouldn't bet money that its DVD/Blu-Ray sales will be subpar. |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1448 |
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o.o wow. I'll have to see how this will be followed up on, then... |
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care2care
 Posts: 36 |
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Maybe I'm just different, but I buy anime on DVD that I haven't seen and I refuse to download it until I get my hands on the boxset (I don't watch streaming anime anymore. It's like watching a bunch of moving pixel-type censors imo).
As for twins, I thought they were fairly common as well as they are an obligation for fanservice and/or harem animes and I don't normally see them as one "character unit." At least the animes with twins I've seen usually have fairly different characteristics despite being in the same group of friends. And I could see why those who've seen the Ouran anime would think the Hitachiin brothers are an epitome of what that girl/guy said. In the anime, Kaoru and Hikaru's characterizations are not fully explored whereas in the manga, their differences and issues with their identities are given more thought and expanded on. The Ouran anime IS episodic afterall and had about 6 or so volumes of source material to go off of at the time, which they only used about half of. It makes sense that they wouldn't be able to get to the actual plot which happens at like volume 9 or 10. And lastly, the next question of the week. I sent my 2 cents already. And after reading the posts now, maybe I shouldn't of. I would hope that the people who respond to that question as well as who discusses it in the forum have different ideas of "safe and predictable anime" in relation to artistic. |
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an.atticus
 Posts: 95 |
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people shouldnt shy away and be ashamed of telling people they like anime or manga.....im in the army, and pretty much everyone knows i like anime and has walked in on me watcing stuff like kyo kara maoh and gundam....even in iraq on my off time, i was watching code geass and ghost stories (i even brought a book case that held 444 dvds of my anime), and when people asked what i was watching i just told em an awesome anime...I've even had guys go in my dvd case, expecting to find a good movie to watch and end up seeing 700 anime dvds (exceptions being the friends collection and some selcect view non anime titles)
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