Forum - View topicShelf Life - Witchy Woman
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sirkoala13
 Posts: 134 Location: Muscle Tower, U.S. |
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How do you not remember? The time Hikari and that blonde were in the shower together, when they were making Hikari's clothes, and Akari, who is, if memory serves, around middle school age, was naked many times throughout the series. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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These sorts of discussions - i.e. how much or little fanservice appears in a series always reminds me of that part in Annie Hall where Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are talking about how much sex they have. Diane says, "We have it all the time; at least 3 or 4 times a week." Woody says, "We hardly ever have sex, only about 3 or 4 times a week." 
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 598 |
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I had to review the recently imported manga version of TUYBW. Wow! Gross! And I read it sitting next to a stranger on a bus to Philadelphia! D'oh! Compared to other fan service heavy shows, Strike Witches is basically golden. It has a plot, and nice animation, and characters. It's the top of the scrap heap.
Ten or fifteen years ago there was a lot of inappropriate stuff in Ninja Scroll and Demon City Shinjuku and La Blue Girl. Just in those days, the trend was towards more violence and grotesque demons. Hopefully lolicon fanservice is just a new trend that will get replaced by some other less despicable trend after a while. For a while, I had a friend who worked at Central Park Media (when it was still in business). I was surprised to hear that tentacle porn had gone out of style in favor of more scatological hentai titles. It's very fad-like. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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Oh I know. Heck many of my old favorites are very violent and bloody. However I still feel that the shows back then that had the violence and the sexual fanservice were not the titles pushing the industry. Not like what we have now. I mean these shows now are the bulk of anime and it's what most studios push. There were plenty of titles with inappropriate material 10-15 years ago but they weren't the majority being pushed by all companies. At least I don't think so. Now shows like that are just coming from all studios and the fans of such shows are what the industry caters to. To me that is the big difference between now and years past. They were there before but now they're the focus. Plus IMHO now the titles are far worse because the companies rely so heavily on the inappropriate and fanservice material that without it the shows would be half as long and not even really be a show at all.
So you are proving your own statement then yes? Thought so. And no that's not bait btw just so you know. That's a flat out insinuation you're hardly one to criticize others for trolling. Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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keikanki
 Posts: 107 |
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Okay? I mean, I'd hope so since I explained my position like the forum rules require, using more than two sentences and a quotation and even pretty pictures? And since more eyecandy is never a bad thing, here's another one: Some annoying picture I'm sure you can appreciate the nuance and recognize the point made. It's ironic to see a person call others bigots when the history of that person's work isn't well known for its spirit of tolerance. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Nearly your entire posting history proves you really have a problem with me. Which is fine, I'm used to that. You're a smart guy and have made some decent points, but it's very clear that at the least you resent me and my take on things and to some extent this site. Most of what you say is a thinly-veiled attack or an attempt to discredit or otherwise devalue something that was written on the frontpage. Again, that's fine. We allow dissent here. You're not a dick about it, so it's cool. But when you defended the guy who told Theron Martin that "all of his reviews read like they're written by children" - something that is absolutely untrue and would be considered nonsense by anyone who had any idea what they were talking about or had ANY familiarity with Theron's massive body of work for this site, I drew a line. Then you told me that I was the one being unfair to that guy by writing him off as a hater, and so I wrote you off as someone so blinded by his own bias against this site and the people who write here that you have literally zero interest in being fair at all. So while your criticisms might sound legitimate because you're capable of forming a coherent sentence and phrasing things to make it seem like you're the wise, enlightened one teaching crude little ol' me how to properly behave, I recognize them for what they are; heavily biased attempts to shoot me down, often argued in bad faith and with absolutely no concern for fairness. Now you're trying to equate "eww gross incest cartoons" with "eww gross homosexuality", the former of which is an argument on the internet between nerds and other nerds and the latter of which is an attitude that robs people of their civil rights. Enjoy your equivalency fallacy. You are not an oppressed minority because I don't like incest and/or loli cartoons. It also isn't my job to publicly defend your personal sexual fetishes or tastes. |
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
Posts: 598 |
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I know what you're saying, but I don't think you're looking at the industry as a whole. Those violent titles from the '90's were OVAs, and not late-night television or even DVDs. Japanese animation for adults is a bizarre tiny niche hanging onto life by a thread. It can't stay one format or one genre forever. Just in general Japan is really prone to trends and a very follow-the-crowd mentality. It may be because of the intense urban density and homogeneity of the population, but trends go through like wildfire. They also die out really fast. One day some girls in Shibuya have little golden poop keychains (an actual trend) and the next day EVERYONE has one, including salarymen. One network has a successful lolicon title and soon the whole production slate for months is booked with similar titles. All it will take is one really successful show about something else to hit big, and you'll see production slates full of some other kind of show. It happens in American TV too, one network has a big reality television hit (Survivor) and soon 90% of prime time is reality TV. Being America, the trend sticks around a lot longer. It took years for sitcoms to die off, but now they're mostly on the Disney Channel, playing to an audience that isn't sick of sitcoms. |
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keikanki
Posts: 107 |
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Uh, wut? 
My entire 60-some posting history of comments on Handley, Vampire Bund, the virtual child porn bill all prove that not only do I have a personal problem with ANN's Editor in Chief, but also that I am operating a sophisticated disinformation campaign to bring down the whole of ANN tumbling to the digital pavement? Shit, I'm [expletive] Jason Borne of anime fandom and I didn't even know it! Kickass. 
It's late, so I'll just assume you're a couple of pints offshore already (as am I) and leave it at that. Suffice it to say I have no idea how my post history led you to that conclusion.
I confess I cannot actually locate the post you're referring to, and while I'll leave my own comments whatever they may be to stand on their own merits, I wish you would refer to them specifically rather than lump me in with someone else you disagreed with assuming my perspective is somehow 1:1. Being semi-familiar with Theron's style, I'm pretty sure whatever I wrote didn't follow the other person into that funhouse, but for lack of specifics I'm at a total lack to discuss.
There's specific context in play here, as I have already pointed out. Nobody's talking about oppressed minorities or giving or taking civil rights from gays or pedophiles or anyone. The discussion started about Strike Witches and a couple of people about a page back spun that out to a larger discussion of fictional representations of flashpoint sexual content. It is within that realm of context that your strident condemnation of homophobes being bigots rings as hypocrisy and invites satire. The bigoted mindset that condemns gays and has robbed them of their civil rights is based in the same cyclical pattern of intolerance that you vent on fans of salacious loli anime like Kissxsis. The social justice equation is different, but the cycle of hate and prejudice is the very same beast. See the lovely Utena graphic. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I see what you're trying to say but ultimately you still seem to be equating homosexuality to pedophilia and that's where your argument breaks down. People who condemn homosexuality in either principle or practice are wrong because there is nothing wrong with homosexuality in any context. The same can not be said of those who condemn pedophilia. At least in practice, pedophilia is clearly bad. Now I understand that this doesn't make it just as bad in a fictional context. At the same time though, you can't completely separate the two. You're still fantasizing about doing something horrible. So isn't it fair to call that a disgusting fantasy?* Unlike homosexuality, there is a good reason to look negatively at pedophilia. Now is that intolerance? No. I would say not. Or alternatively, if you want to accept such a liberal definition then you would have to also concede that 'intolerance' is only bad in cases where it isn't warranted (ie. homosexuality). Either that or refuse to take a negative view of any harmless but otherwise questionable action or attitude, something I don't think anyone can claim to do. *If you don't agree with this statement, then that's a whole other discussion. But you can at least see then that this is where your disagreement lies with people who criticize lolicon and for those who accept this line of reasoning, there is no double standard. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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First of all, your contention that the majority of titles these days are "pushing" what you consider "inappropriate material" (whatever that is) is simply a lazy and unsubstatiated contention. If we were to list every show that had come out in the last 10 years, by season, fan service shows would numerically be in the minority. I imagine you would consider Seikon no Qwaser to be "inappropriate" but what about a show like Kampfer where all the females had womanly bodies - does that fall under your category of "inappropriate?" Second, in what way do I troll? If you are going to toss an accusation out there like that, have the common courtesy to back it up with specifics. I was able to accurately say that Mohawk52 was trolling because his "fish and chips" comment after my post seemed to imply that he'd be "fishing" for a reply specifically from me (i.e. baiting). What do you have as evidence of my "trolling?" Oh, and by the way, for those of you who are subscribers and can thus view in the community forums, be sure to check out Psycho's wonderful figure and artwork collection. [Link to Psycho's collection removed at his request] It REALLY shows that he abhors any kind of "inappropriate" material. The Ikki Tousen and Rosario + Vampire gals seem to be very well represented in your collection. I'm glad you don't go for that fanservice crap that the anime industry is constantly shoving down our throats! 
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neocloud9
 Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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It's a real shame that the technology hasn't been developed yet to give hugs over the internet... Thanks, Zac. 
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2092 |
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That doesn't necessarily prove anything. I like Ikki Tousen for the fights and laughs in a guilty-pleasure way, and while I hate the R+V anime for being way too fanservicey, the manga is a pretty good read with decent characters and it doesn't go too overboard with FS. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Well, it's totally up to each individual reader who is interested to read Psycho's comments in this thread and then check out his figure and artwork collection (assuming you can view the Community Forums). If such a person sees absolutely no disconnect between Psycho's sermonizing here and his collection, then what can I say? |
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keikanki
Posts: 107 |
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The thing is, except for Zac I don't think that anybody in this thread has had anything to say about living breathing gays or pedos. What I'm talking about is the innuendo aspect of the visual representation, which is very much an important distinction. I definitely could have done a better job of articulating that point. That's what I get for posting buzzed. Whether you're talking about Kissxsis or Utena, sexual motifs are being used to invoke a pointed reaction in the viewer. Clever as Utena may be, it's not exactly an exercise in civil rights. It's fiction that exploits homoerotic imagery to test the viewer's boundaries and perhaps contribute to a larger aesthetic gestalt. The movie version ends with a dark-skinned (Indian?) woman and a fair-skinned (Japanese?) woman snuggling naked and kissing eachother on a speeding motorcycle. Utena may be better animated and more intellectual on the whole than Kissxsis, but the gimmicky exploitation elements that certain individuals lambaste as vile and disturbing are present in spades there and in a variety of other shows created by the same industry people. Zac seems to be arguing that some sexually exploitative gimmicks are better than others based on real world political circumstances. Aside from being hypocritical, I think that is contrary to the purpose of fiction. Anime has always been edgy and unpredictable by western standards and I don't see what stands to be gained by cleaning it up and making it safe for low-tolerance viewers now. |
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neocloud9
Posts: 1178 Location: Atlanta, GA |
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THIS "living breathing gay" does. Media absolutely affects the opinions its consumers carry into their daily lives and you'd be crazy to think otherwise. While a romance anime focusing on a homosexual relationship could be viewed as fetishy or "testing the boundaries" to some, more conservative people, at least it's a positive representation. I'd much rather see that than have people continue on with their previously established negative stereotypes... I think it's unfair to assume that any homosexual relationship in fiction is automatically a "sexually exploitative gimmick." What, are we not allowed to have our own love stories? |
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) So now, compared to that, Strike Witches seems like almost Shelf Worthy to me, not that I've seen it, but it looks interesting. 
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