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NEWS: Tokyo's '2D Child Porn' Bill Delayed to at Least Fall


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Tempest
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:55 pm Reply with quote
People should really read Dan Kanemitsu's explanation of this bill (linked to in the article). One common misunderstanding is the belief that Tokyo is debating outlawing certain material. They aren't (not yet at least). They're debating requiring certain material to be identified as harmful to children and therefore not to be consumed by children. It's also important to understand that pornographic material is not affected by this. Pr0n is already treated in this way, it's non-pornographic material that will be affected in this way.

Love Hina, Suzuka, Nana and Kimi wa Pet are examples of titles that could become restricted to adults only.

This isn't to say that the bill has nothing to do with child pr0n. Read Dan's explanation.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Wierd.... keeping teens from reading Nana, while allowing adults to continue to read child porn manga titles?
Japan continues to be messed up.

It sounds like they're tackling the wrong area by targetting shonen/shojo titles with some mature content and making it illegal for teens to access them, when they should be focusing just on making child porn illegal for anyone to possess [a part of the bill, but though I found Dan's article helpful, it's still unclear if that would affect the drawn stuff, which has been outlawed in many other countries. It's like they went after a minor issue instead of going after the major one]


Last edited by Paploo on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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GrilledEelHamatsu



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:12 pm Reply with quote
tempest wrote:
People should really read Dan Kanemitsu's explanation of this bill (linked to in the article). One common misunderstanding is the belief that Tokyo is debating outlawing certain material. They aren't (not yet at least). They're debating requiring certain material to be identified as harmful to children and therefore not to be consumed by children. It's also important to understand that pornographic material is not affected by this. Pr0n is already treated in this way, it's non-pornographic material that will be affected.

Love Hina, Suzuka, Nana and Kimi wa Pet are examples of titles that could become restricted to adults only.


There's certainly alot of growing oppossition across Japan about this new law, mainly because of the buracuracy its created with many adult manga site here in the U.S. having to remove massive shotacon and lolicon scantlations and even google eliminating hentai from it's search engine.

Meanwhile in Japan, most doujinshi artists are protesting this due to the fact that before this, there was never a problem or issue allowing minors to buy hentai it was the parents that made the decision whether or not it was appropiate for them and a could give a clerk consent to sell it to minors. I'm on the side of the opposition, hentai depicting children is fictional,benign,harmless. It does NOT make young teen boys go and want to rape or molest a little girl. All studies have shown that it doesn't hurt the minds of kids.

I would be for them banning the sell of loli and shota to pedophiles(hell, that makes sense.) But this bill is too damn conservetive.
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: HK wherabouts Pronouns: she/her
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
Wierd.... keeping teens from reading Nana, while allowing adults to continue to read child porn manga titles?
Japan continues to be messed up. It sounds like they're tackling the wrong area, when they should be focusing just on making child porn illegal to possess [which looks to be part of this, though is getting bogged down by controversy over other elements].
Then I'm glad you have no influence on the matter because this is the exact sentiment I've garnered from you and others like you that are perfectly in favor of limiting the right to access to all forms of artistic expression to ADULTS, the majority of whom are clearly capable to distinguish fiction from reality. It is something, however that you continue to fail to grasp.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:30 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:
Paploo wrote:
Wierd.... keeping teens from reading Nana, while allowing adults to continue to read child porn manga titles?
Japan continues to be messed up. It sounds like they're tackling the wrong area, when they should be focusing just on making child porn illegal to possess [which looks to be part of this, though is getting bogged down by controversy over other elements].
Then I'm glad you have no influence on the matter because this is the exact sentiment I've garnered from you and others like you that are perfectly in favor of limiting the right to access to all forms of artistic expression to ADULTS, the majority of whom are clearly capable to distinguish fiction from reality.


I just think masturbation material with 5 year olds is disgusting. Last I checked, that's not a controversial or wrong opinion.
Which this law would apparently still allow in manga's case [though it would make the possession of material w/real kids illegal as part of things, which is something Japan doesn't have at the moment, and severely needs. I hope no one find fault with me believing that- I think at the very least, they need that to happen whatever other changes are made to the law when it's reconsidered].

You guys can say whatever you want, but no thanks, don't want that, and I hope it's illegal eventually in Japan. Because I don't really buy the line that people reading this material will never touch a real kid....
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-10-22/twins-20-jailed-for-child-porn-including-manga-images

Glad Dan cleared up things with his article. And going away before this all turns into a DefendTehLolis thread, so I don't have to go puke.


Last edited by Paploo on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Past



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:52 pm Reply with quote
But it's not as cut and dry that actual porn is "off the hook" while content available to a general audience is being targeted for censorship and/or regulation. If we suggest that people are influenced by fictional, 2D material, it would make sense for concerned parties to focus on consumers who they deem are most affected.

It seems more like a way to satiate demands for solving whatever problems are more within the realm of reason, rather than tackling the many uncertainties of the psychology and sexuality of the adult mind. Therefore I find their approach logical if adopting their perspective on the matter. So need I mention I wasn't the one that suggested Japan was "messed up" about it?


Last edited by Past on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:53 pm Reply with quote
gorbal wrote:
This is confusing....so as it stands now do they let minors buy sexually explicit manga? If the law passes they can only buy sexually explicit manga involving adults? Is this what you are telling me?


With ero-manga currently, those can only be purchased by adults, so this law doesn't affect them as Dan's article explains. Children can't buy them under current laws.

It would just make the availabliity of general audiences titles w/some mature content [but not pornographic content as tempest indicated] limited. It sounds to be adding to already existing regulations concerning content available to minors.


Last edited by Paploo on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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RestLessone



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:59 pm Reply with quote
I'm confused, too...I'm all for regulating what minors can buy in terms of explicit content, but if this is banning the sale of sexual illustrations of minors to minors only, then what's the point? Why can't the ban encompass all sexual content, rather than just with minors?

And, would this even limit parental consent? Currently, in the US, someone can buy a rated "M" series as long as the parent was with them and gave consent. I don't see why keeping and using this system would be a problem in Japan, either, rather than just banning the content outright. Just make the laws more strict so that clerks aren't letting young kids run in, buy inappropriate series, and dash away.

Some of those titles, like Nana and Love Hina, aren't even restricted to adults here Confused They're just reserved for older teens, unless parents say otherwise...Why not set up a system where comics are made available to people depending on content; show an ID if you're 16 for this series, 18 for that series, etc, etc if it comes down to that.
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nynextew



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:02 pm Reply with quote
RestlessOne wrote:
show an ID if you're 16 for this series, 18 for that series, etc, etc if it comes down to that.


When I was 16, I wasn't allowed to have an ID. So how would that work for that particular group?
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Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
Past wrote:
Paploo wrote:
Wierd.... keeping teens from reading Nana, while allowing adults to continue to read child porn manga titles?
Japan continues to be messed up. It sounds like they're tackling the wrong area, when they should be focusing just on making child porn illegal to possess [which looks to be part of this, though is getting bogged down by controversy over other elements].
Then I'm glad you have no influence on the matter because this is the exact sentiment I've garnered from you and others like you that are perfectly in favor of limiting the right to access to all forms of artistic expression to ADULTS, the majority of whom are clearly capable to distinguish fiction from reality.


I just think masturbation material with 5 year olds is disgusting. Last I checked, that's not a controversial or wrong opinion.
Which this law would apparently still allow in manga's case [though it would make the possession of material w/real kids illegal as part of things, which is something Japan doesn't have at the moment, and severely needs. I hope no one find fault with me believing that- I think at the very least, they need that to happen whatever other changes are made to the law when it's reconsidered].

You guys can say whatever you want, but no thanks, don't want that, and I hope it's illegal eventually in Japan. Because I don't really buy the line that people reading this material will never touch a real kid....
animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-10-22/twins-20-jailed-for-child-porn-including-manga-images

Glad Dan cleared up things with his article. And going away before this all turns into a DefendTehLolis thread, so I don't have to go puke.


First of all, MOST loli characters are 10-17..not 5..that's toddlercon. 2nd, there's a difference between people that have real child porn ALSO having "manga images" and people who ONLY have manga someday becoming child molesters..this probably happens less than it dose with normal people becoming them because look at 2D lovers...THEY FREAKIN MARRY VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS. At least one did, but there are LOTS of them are honestly don't give a rat's about real girls of any age..they just like young-looking 2d girls...and we shouldn't take that from them.

Also, do some more fact checking because Japan DOES have real CP outlawed..and has for awhile.


Last edited by Kougeru on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:07 pm Reply with quote
nynextew wrote:
RestlessOne wrote:
show an ID if you're 16 for this series, 18 for that series, etc, etc if it comes down to that.


When I was 16, I wasn't allowed to have an ID. So how would that work for that particular group?


Not sure--it was just a "if it comes down to it" suggestion. It also depends on what sort of ID you mean. It doesn't necessarily mean a driver's license or something; just proof of the birth date or age. Schools in my area give students school IDs. Or, you could just get parental consent or order online.
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Paploo



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:07 pm Reply with quote
...... masterbating to a 10 year old is still just as gross 0_o I hate to break it to you guys, but people will generally find that gross. Telling me it's normal or okay in caps will not change that fact nor will it change my opinion on the matter. Some people will be creeped out by that.

I think it's up to the law to determine what's ultimately legal, and to ensure people are protected from it if deemed illegal. Currently, in the UK, Canada and Australia, this stuff is all illegal. You guys are free to have your opinions, just like I'm free to hope more countries ban this stuff.

All that said, I hope Tokyo does make it's rules more clear, and only affect pornographic content rather than normal teen fiction. It sounds like this bill isn't quite what many thought it would be, and it's still unsettling real child porn is legal to posess in Japan [Kougeru, read Dan's article- possessing it is still legal. Yeah, so Japan=Messed Up]
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J-Syxx



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
...... masterbating to a 10 year old is still just as gross 0_o I hate to break it to you guys, but people will generally find that gross. Telling me it's normal or okay in caps will not change that fact nor will it change my opinion on the matter. Some people will be creeped out by that.

I think it's up to the law to determine what's ultimately legal, and to ensure people are protected from it if deemed illegal. Currently, in the UK, Canada and Australia, this stuff is all illegal. You guys are free to have your opinions, just like I'm free to hope more countries ban this stuff.

All that said, I hope Tokyo does make it's rules more clear, and only affect pornographic content rather than normal teen fiction. It sounds like this bill isn't quite what many thought it would be, and it's still unsettling real child porn is legal to posess in Japan [Kougeru, read Dan's article- possessing it is still legal. Yeah, so Japan=Messed Up]


Something being gross isn't a legal rationale for sending someone to jail for something that effects no other living human beings (drawings aren't real). This is why you fail. If you're fine with this, then maybe you should allow a government bureaucrat to stand in front of you every time you are doing anything sexual. It's the only way to make sure you're not doing anything gross after all. Rape isn't illegal because it's gross.
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Yivyn



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:31 pm Reply with quote
Delayed until Fall? Good job, Japan. Hope you see what a mistake your making with this bill.
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Dakaran



Joined: 17 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:39 pm Reply with quote
Those kind of laws must never be vague and must be perfectly written to the coma and dot precisely what they cover, what they are and how they apply.

I'm 1000% against it because in its essence it will be destroying the anime industry and creator's freedom because some americans are prude geez!

Americans complainiing get the hell out of here. I want my vampire series to be dark, sensual and enthralling. I want my ecchi series to like Rosario Capu to be fun and appealing, Ikkitousen to have super beautiful fighters in sexy dress if they have to, and all that without breaking the diversity of appeal from all types of anime series.

Series like Sora no Otoshimono who were very cool with lots of fun and jokes, and also beautiful concerts had pantsu fever and pantsu storms so it should never be depiced as a problem. Girls under 16 ok maybe but what the hell 18 is hard to tell on screen most of the time.

I hope Japan categorically rejects this bill. Freedom of creativity and speech are essential in this world. As long as it doesn't harm other human beings it's fine. Accept others in society want to express themselves freely. The only time you can draw a clear line is around the age of 15 or below or 22 and above. There is a zone that blurs 16-19, sorry not possible to deal with that efficiently in anime.

I want my series to stay the same that's my point. Once more, I will reiterate what I said, should this bill pass then anime will be destroyed. The strong points of anime is its diversity and cultural impact compared to stupid american culture stagnant and lifeless. I don't want to see a walt disney damn it, I want an anime full of colors, exciting stories and full of variety!

There will be no substance without creativity. How are they suppose to draw dresses for girls or guys if they always have to check on the back of their mind it's border line or not, is it ok or too much? The hell with that as I wasn't raised in Canada, a country of freedom, for nothing, without having a clear view and understanding of those situations. I'll make the choice what I want to see and leave it ok for others to get what they want. It was fine before and is fine now too, go cry me a river elsewhere but you ain't depriving artists of their freedom for sure passing a bill like that. =p!

SAY NO TO THAT BILL! >.<


~Dak


Last edited by Dakaran on Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:06 pm; edited 5 times in total
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