Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyo's '2D Child Porn' Bill Delayed to at Least Fall
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
Phantom14
 Posts: 86 Location: USA |
|
|||
|
This bill is such a travasty to free speech, fredom of the press. If the Japanese goverment wants to tighten the noose around real child pornagraphy and or "2d kidde p0rn" they realy have to be more detailed and specific about it. Being vage in a law like this is realy going to have a dangerous affect to the entire anime and manga industry.
They have to define the lines more clearly. Let me just say now, pornagraphy; even if it is drawn by a master artist is NOT art. Pornagraphy is defined as "obscene writings, pictures, or films intended to arouse sexual desire". There is nothing artsy about p0rn. It is there simply for your "pleasure." P0rn is ment to be obscene This bill clearly has no defnition and does not draw a line for pornagraphy and mainstream entertainment of anime and manga. For anyone that still does not get it, ill illistrate it to you....imagine if the US goverment had a law and said that movies like "Fast Times at Ridgmond High" or "American Pie" (the first one) was defined as pornographic? |
||||
|
||||
Hayami
 Posts: 38 |
|
|||
That's your opinion. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography ^ Note the "works of art" term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography ^ Even among antique art there quite a few works that may be considered porn. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_arts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_arts ^ There is no requirement such as "not porn". Obviously wiki doesn't hold the absolute truth, but usually it reflects or includes at least the most common views. Even the most deviant erotic art may have (and usually has imo) artistic merit. One and the same drawing may be obscene to some and beautiful to others. People have different tastes and morals. Even if an artwork was created or/and mostly viewed for erotic gratification, it does not mean that it's not art. Also, I think that people have the right (or should have the right) to create and view works of art for erotic gratification, including depictions of the most "evil"/deviant fantasies. Considering how common is such "evil" art among erotic manga, it would be strange to assume that it makes people more evil/dangerous on average. Rather it's a way to reflect on some hidden feelings and not even necessary evil ones. The creator or the reader of a rape or loli manga doesn't necessary associate him/herself with the evil protagonist. Christopher Handley is a good example. Often it's just a form of escapism. Imo it is much more harmless than the way of suppression, self-chastisement, self-denial. Last edited by Hayami on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||
|
||||
|
Parsifal24
|
|
|||
|
Odd it would keep Love Hina out of the hands of teens I don't think a bill needs to be passed you could just restrict who has access to it like an R rated movie. But the whole Child Porn thing just creeps me out but then there's the whole debate about well when does it end? How far is too far and would it restrict anything related to sex and drawn/animated children like the anti drug reference part of the comics code they had in the states years back? Given there are things I really don't like but just because I don't like something doesn't mean there has to be a law passed banning it. With that being said however I feel when your dealing with Obscenity (in the general sense) it must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law the problem is defining and prosecuting it.
|
||||
scchan
 Posts: 143 Location: Exeter, UK |
|
|||
|
If I take Dan Kanemitsu word as it is (the explanation of the bill), I am against the bill for this explanation:
I think some degree of control and ranking of material (as I interpret what the bill means) to prevent minor from reading is justified; no one wants kids to be "messed up". Classifying art and literature to be unsuitable to minor is not censorship. However rules should be as less vague as possible. There will be always be some subjectivity in interpreting what is child porn or unsuitable for minors, but the guidelines should be fixed and well defined, and not defined just as the specific person feel where it should be. Anyway, often such bills are pushed further at the beginning for political reasons (so after political compromise, the bill will winded up where the original proposer really wanted to be; ask for too little to begin, then you will get even less after the compromise  ).
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ganryu
Posts: 106 |
|
|||
I just think masturbating material with scatological content is disgusting. Last I checked, that's not a controversial or wrong opinion. The fact that something is disgusting shouldn't make something illegal. I think Hostel is a disgusting movie. I wouldn't want to ban it. |
||||
|
||||
CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||
You can BELIEVE whatever you want. In a free society I can believe what I want. I do not believe a drawing of a fictional child being raped or beheaded or devoured in any way affects a real live child any more than I believe all those kids Freddy Kruger has killed over the last 30 yrs has affected real live children. I cannot speak to why an author might choose to depict such a scene, nor why a reader may seek out such material, but I do not believe the millions of children who have been exposed to Little Red Riding Hood or Hansel & Gretal over the centuries have been harmed. I CAN see how, brutal as it is, it can stand as a plot device. Want to know how bad this villain is? He roasts babies & eats them after deflowering them! Don't you want our hero to defeat him? Did Bambi's mother HAVE to die? Not really. Did Mufasa have to die? No. But both events shaped the lives of the heroes of their stories.
If you followed that story at all, you know it involved a vindictive girlfriend looking to get something out of it (her child, wasn't it?) & that one of the twins was deemed by the docs as not being an issue, but he was damned because they couldn't tell who possessed the damning pictures. Anyone with any sort of reasoning ability can see that the boy with the issue also seemed more interested in actual child porn than virtual by the amount of images downloaded. That Australian guy was just stupid & seemed to trying to explore what he perceived as a loophole (as criminals do) because he was on parole & banned from possessing child porn, so he went for virtual children because he was denied access to actual children. As I tell my druggies ALL THE TIME we do not provide childcare-do not bring your children to your appointment because we have actual sex offenders who just might go home & dream about their children. BAN ALL THE IMAGES YOU WANT PEOPLE-you will not stop them from pleasuring themselves to the kids in the commercials on tv or your child playing at the park. So why don't we STOP this lame stuff & focus on stopping the people with the problem? Keep a closer eye on them. Keep the heat on them & not the material because the material could all go away tomorrow, but these creeps drooling over your children will not. They have existed throughout history & they, like cockroaches, will continue to exist. Get real. Why do we focus on treating the alcoholic vs banning alcohol? Because society shows a majority of people can deal with liquor in a reasonable manner. A certain segment cannot & they need to avoid it completely, yet many of the general public cannot understand this. I meet so many friends who can't see why my client has to abstain from alcohol use--because my client can't stop like you can. However, this isn't what this bill is about. This bill is another run at the PMRC hill, only they aren't talking stickers, but actually prohibiting the sale to minors material the GOVERNMENT deems unfit for a child to see. I took my daughter to her first R-rated movie when she was 8 because I felt she could handle it. That did not mean I allowed her to see every R-rated movie--only those I deemed ok. That was my right as a parent. My daughter read Love Hina when she was in 6th grade with my blessing because I saw nothing wrong with the material. The Japanese government is trying to remove parental rights so the government can decide what morality children in their society will possess. It is NOT the government's place to teach morality. It is the place of parents/family & religion. Government creates laws to protect the people, but those laws only enforce rights. Last resort-type is wards of the state may be forced to get such guidance from the state since the state is their parent, but usually the state works to get the child into a family situation so that family can be the moral compass, even if it's foster family. We all know this is a cog that seems to break down IE-if you haven't been teaching your child right from wrong by the time that child has started his/her school career, it doesn't look good. 5 is a bit late to start setting that moral compass. Parents should be teaching their child from birth what is & is not acceptable behavior. Japanese parents should have the right to decide if their child is mature enough to read Romeo & Juliet without the government saying otherwise. If Japanese society is floundering, maybe the government should run a PR campaign to teach their adults to return to more of a moral position. |
||||
|
||||
|
configspace
Posts: 3717 |
|
|||
|
Paploo first this bill isn't about "5 year old" lolicon material. This will ban selling NON-hentai, NON-adult, ecchi, fanservice material to persons under 18 in Tokyo. In other words, it treats whatever objectionable fanservice material as porn.
I don't say "2d child porn" because guess what? A naked Rukia from Bleach would be considered child porn here despite the fact that she's a couple hundred years old since she easily "appears" to be under 18, and so would a naked Ichigo too, despite how virtually no one would consider him to be a child, but is 15 in the Bleach universe. So any non-explicit sexual material featuring those characters would be banned for teens under this bill, at least in Tokyo. .. It make me wonder what happens to teens who draw such material themselves. A crime for selling 2d "child" pRon to yourself, thus endangering your own youthful development? Secondly as CCSYueh, who cares what people fap too? You think Tokyo teenagers will stop fapping with this bill? Do you think date rape cases will decline or something? Heck, the government shouldn't even be in the role of regulating the "healthy development of youths". And fap material doesn't lead to more crime, If that were the case, it would have exploded by orders of magnitude now in Japan. We also have concrete statistics to absolutely disprove any causal link between obscene material and rape here. See the excerpt about how wrong the Reagan administration was. If the bill goes through, it will certainly drive much of the business out of Tokyo, including entire conventions like Comiket for sure.
The LDP is known to be a lap-dog of the US and UN. But even aside from politics, "liberal" they are not. Most of its members are ridiculously socially conservative in the western fashion. They were the ones who introduced a bill banning practically every fetish from eroge (now rescinded after LDP lost majority rule to DPJ) The DPJ should just push back; what most people are worried about and what they are losing popularity in is the economy and this will obviously have a negative impact |
||||
|
||||
|
Phantom14
Posts: 86 Location: USA |
|
|||
|
CCSYueh you ahve it right on the dime. No goverment entitie has the right to tell parents what is or is not "moral" or "right" to be read, or watched. Parents should be teaching their kids not their political leaders.
As for the kiddie fapin, well if someone is fapping to images of kids be it drawn or real, they have problems. They either get the help they need, keep to themselvs and stay away from kids, or rot in a prision hole for the rest of their lives. Ill go right out and just say it now, 2d kiddie p0rn is wrong. There is no round about it. Those that read it/fap to it have issues. Im not saying every person reading this crap is out to get your kids, but if you knew someone that loved to masterbate to "2d kidde p0rn" would you let your kid be around that person? Even if you say "well ya sure, I know that person" then you are lying to yourself, or you will always have that little voice in your head that keeps on telling you that , that person gets off on images that you find realy creepy. Those images look like your kid. |
||||
|
||||
|
configspace
Posts: 3717 |
|
|||
.. ookay.. your first part seems to contradict the second part. so if your neighbor's "kid" is fapping to Yoko from Gurren Lagann, he should be seeking help because I guess he's sexual predator in the making? And when such "kid" turns 18, he needs to keep away from his girlfriend now? If someone makes a yaoi doujin featuring Simon and Kamina, they should be going to jail? And girls and women who read them should be seeking help? |
||||
|
||||
|
Unrequited
Posts: 3 |
|
|||
Uh, yeah... just because someone is a pedophile doesn't mean they're a rapist. I had a former classmate who's a pedophile. And guess what? She has a family (with a man actually older than her). She's gone to therapy and help groups etc. but none of them really helped. She's just accepted the intrinsic traits/preferences she was born with and decided to live on the rest of her life. In that sense, it's like trying to make a straight person gay through classes, or vice versa. Besides, I have straight guy friends who (wait till you here this) haven't raped me. And they have gay friends who haven't raped them either. Go figure. Some people can moderate themselves. The people that can't are the ones that you need to be wary about. (Those prone to crime, addiction, etc.) And fiction adds another dimension. For example: I like a few shooter games, but when it comes to real life, I'm too scared to even go near a gun. There are even otakus who prefer to 2D to real life. Some apparently even think real people are disgusting. |
||||
|
||||
Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||
|
I don't have a real issue if it were just rating, but it doesn't sound like it.
What I hate about the whole record rating thing is it makes parents lazy. They don't have to know what their kid is into, just know it has a rating & say no. I wasn't the most popular mom allowing my daughter to see the Matrix when she was 8 yrs old because several moms in her school hated that film for whatever reason (I think the violence), but it was a cartoon violence because for all that gunfire, there wasn't a whole lot of blood to the film. This bill seems to deny parents the right to override the government. If the Government says a manga is unfit for juvenile consumption, it sounds like there is no way for mom & dad to say "I think my kid can handle it" My daughter made it thru Love Hina just fine, yet it is one of the titles that could be banned from people under 18 reading. This is all the toletarian societies bringing up the child rather than the parents doing it. A guy in a government office doesn't know my child & cannot say if Battle Royale is something she cannot read (She actually loved it. I bought the manga for her. I've never read past the first couple volumes) I have more faith in my child than any government would. I know what she can & cannot handle better than the government. Unrequited, I disagree with the gay comparison. There's really no reason for a gay person to not be allowed to be gay other than religious. On the other hand, I'd say pedophilia could be compared to the various addictions. Most people can drink alcohol with no problem, but certain people can't. Same for gambling, etc. They play anti-gambling PSA's on the radio & one of the taglines is "When the fun is no longer fun". Yeah, red-blooded guys/gals may react to a sexy teen they see, but most have the ability/common sense to not chase after jailbait. There's no way one can really stop people from mentally raping/having sex/undressing/whatever another person & so long as it stays in the head, how does it harm society? It's only when the person acts on the thought the action becomes real. You can be mad at your boss & imagine that person dying an ugly death all one wants. You can wish a coyote would eat the stupid mutt that keeps leaving deposits on one's yard. Thinking about taking that money out of the register isn't stealing. Remember Walter Mitty? Fantasy isn't real. There's a certain satisfaction that comes from not succumbing to temptation. A dieter not breaking the diet all week long & managing to lose that pound. If one removes all temptation, what does that say about people? That they can walk the straight & narrow so long as there's no temptation in the way? If children are kept in sterile worlds, when do we expect them to become adults? The morning they wake up on their 18th birthday they can magically know all the stuff they've been denied to see is not something they can act upon? Doesn't the child learn from Lucy pulling that football away from Charlie Brown that there are jerks out there in the world? Can a child not learn a certain amount of social interraction from books or movies? What never to do? I can't even remember how much incidental knowledge I've picked up from reading fantasy stories. Odd facts thrown into a story I've looked up & been surprised to learn is indeed factual. |
||||
|
||||
Sariachan
 Posts: 1492 Location: Italy |
|
|||
|
^ I fully agree, and I would also like to add: people don't become suddenly adults, it isn't like 0 today, 1 tomorrow.
Growing up is a natural and gradual process, and regulating things too much can only hurt in the long run, especially if things regulated are fiction, and not reality. |
||||
|
||||
Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
|
|||
|
True, but what does it mean to be an adult? What is conducive to this transition between childhood and adulthood? Watching "adult content" does not equal adult. I don't think that much of what is considered acceptable for teens and children does much more than prepare them for kidulthood.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||
|
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group