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agila61 wrote:

Kalessin wrote:

I see no point in actually watching streams. They're just too low quality, and there are generally plenty of higher quality alternatives.

From the hit rates on Alexa, there obviously are those who prefer the streams. That is a potential market that can be turned into an actual market. It won't be all of the market - but an industry that relies on any single revenue stream is vulnerable in any event.

And of course the leach streaming sites are more vulnerable than torrent downloads, since they require their material to stay up on free video streaming sites reliably enough for users to follow series ... so there is a prospect for actually defending streams from bootleg competition.

Downloads - as I said, I wouldn't know what the price point is, maybe $8/month for 32 sub downloads with rollover. And competing against "fansub" torrents on quality is tricky, since if the download is higher quality, the torrents will just rip the download. So I don't know where the market there is, except for DRM locked gear.

Of course, one of Funimation's best downloads in its XBox store is Ikki, so a successful download business model might also involve some of the other wonderful elements discussed in the podcast, including the alternate universe Japan where all young women get plastic surgery before starting high school.

Well, I'm certainly not claiming that no one wants to watch streams - my brother watches a ton of TV that way (much as I don't understand it) - but personally I find the quality to be far too low to even consider it. And truth be told, I won't pay for download-to-own unless it's completly DRM-free, which they're not about to do. I'll buy the DVDs or BDs when they come out, and I can watch them or rip them then, so I can get high quality, legitimate, DRM-free video (since the DRM on DVDs and BDs can be bypassed fairly easily). So I definitely pay for what I watch as long as it gets licensed for DVD/BD release in the US. But if I'm going to watch something before it gets released on video disc, fansubs are the only thing that I'll touch. The rest is either of too low quality and/or isn't DRM-free.

As for price comparisons... well that's another story. It's hard to compare any of the possibilities whene none of them are truly equal (though some are closer than others). Personally, I'd value video at far less value when it doesn't come with a physical disc. And when I can just wait to get the stuff on disc, why pay for something inferior before that (assuming that download-to-own is even available)? Sure, in the cases where I watch fansubs first, I'm breaking the law, but since I always buy the stuff when it's released on video disc, I don't really worry about it. They're definitely getting my money whether they stream stuff or not.

Was Meredith hosting the Media Blasters panel at Otakon 2008? Because that is where I saw my first glimpse of Moribito and fell in love...*sigh* I am so, so happy it and 12 Kingdoms are doing well. I am also happy to hear that due to the increasing popularity of download-to-own distribution, dubs are not going the way of the Dodo. *Phew*!!

I prefer quality animation and storytelling, too, but it's comforting to know that Ecchi shows have their place supporting the good stuff (like how Twilight supports better sequential art over at Yen Press). I was quite upset when I heard Queen's Blade was not only *licensed* but getting a DUB, when other far more deserving shows (IMHO) deserve that treatment, but I can't hate it now, knowing how it will probably sell well and make a profit.

Which leads me to completely agree with the idea of honesty and transparancy reguarding how well anime fares in the market here. I want to know how these companies are doing, and I really think paying customers have a right to know how well individual titles do.
As a consumer with very, very little cash to burn, I personally feel like a "shareholder" when I "invest" in a title. I can only speak for myself, but I feel that in this economy, there is simply very little cash to go around. Making the consumer/fan feel guilty for being unable to support everything a company puts out is a strategy (or lack thereof, rather) that will only alieniate fans. Making them feel like shareholders and thanking them for their support will help build up that sense of community that fans of niche entertaiment crave, and may just encourage more sales. Win-win.

Personal Anecdote: at a recent event, I stopped over at Verticals booth and was surprised to see Black Jack vol. 11 prominently displayed. I mentioned that I owned all 10 volumes of BJ and Ed thanked me! It feels great to support a company that truly appreciates my business. I haggled a bit and ended up with BJ 11, Twin Spica 1, and a truly awesome totebag (if you ever see a Vertical booth at a con, ask for the tote bag!) And a great feeling that I was purchasing quality products from truly nice guys. Smile

Kalessin wrote:

Still, if I were to do anything with streams, I'd just stream it in the background with the volume turned off without watching so that it got them whatever revenue that they get from it being played, and then I'd watch the fansub since then I'd get decent video. Either that or I'd just wait for the DVD/BD and skip out on both the streams and the fansubs. I see no point in actually watching streams. They're just too low quality, and there are generally plenty of higher quality alternatives.

To me not actually watching the stream and the fansub instead is really not any different than watching the fansub only. Part of the revenue might be accumulated clickthrus to their site but advertisers have a means of determining where and whether their ads reach customers or not. If you're not actually seeing the ads, it does make an impact in the long run. I even feel I'm evading ads when I mute my computer when the ads play (because they are so loud - I wouldn't mute them if they were at the same level as the show's audio).

It's strange though the video player in the Funimation channel uses the Hulu engine. But when I was watching shows on the Hulu site the ads had static bookmarks, so when you watched an ad that played during a certain portion of the show and backed up to an earlier point in the show you didn't have to watch the ad again. It was much nicer and I was much more willing to watch an ad. I wish they would implement that on the Funimation site where the annoyance level is much higher so I'll go out of my way to avoid or mute ads.

This may seem like I'm saying I'm perfectly content with advertisers feeding me ads, but I kind of have a unconventional view of the future of the industry. Which is that I favor complete disintegration of physical media.

Quote:

"Just because you're talking louder doesn't make you right."(...)I'm just trying to make the point that anime like other art forms are to some measure subjective. To me, and to Razzuel it's a different experience than yours, and it bugs me when people try to tell me what to think about something.

You misunderstood. I wasn't stating my opinion when I said that. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I stated before, I personally consider the series to be all ages, as in can please an adult audience without a problem, I even compared it to Ghibli's audience xD
The producers however, and that's what I was talking about, intended it as a children's show and it shows clear signs thereof.

lostinagoodbook wrote:

You say it is "absolutely" targeted at children. Why? Does it air on saturday mornings?

Almost

It aired sunday afternoon 6pm on NHK Educational. And it was produced to fit into that time slot, as a children's show. You know that, when you compare the anime to the novel, because, as said, they did add things into the series, to make it more child friendly (most prominent examples are the two brothers and Joun's running gag) - and they cut out some stuff which they thought was too much.

And then you have the author herself saying that she was worried, about turning these novels into a children's show, because she had intended them for a general audience (can be found in the afterword of the second novel, originally pointed out by vanfanel in a different thread).
There have been other statements as well, like the comparison to "Heidi". Don't have them here right now, if you're interested I can search.

The point was, eventhough Erin is intended as a children's show and does have its childish parts, as was said in ANNCast, they shouldn't just give up on it, because it can and does very much appeal to a much wider audience. I guess, we agree on that Very Happy

Blood- wrote:

Sigh. I didn't want to do this, but you have forced me to wheel out the big guns. I give you none other than ANN's esteemed Carl Kimlinger in his review of Erin's episodes 1-25 streaming:

Quote:

While the series' respect for its audience leaves it open for enjoyment by all age brackets, Erin's visuals firmly mark it as children's fare ... The smooth, child-friendly character designs are the main tip-off, though the simple yet painterly backgrounds and entirely bloodless violence (carnage is communicated via abstract folk art) are also telling.

So there you go. This debate is forever closed. Wink

Since Carl didn't watch the last third of the series, he obviously missed the rather violent final arc, the bloody wars, an incestuous relationship, graphic attempts to kill a number of main characters. It's not seinen level gore, but it's far more violent than children's fare.

I found the backgrounds and art for the series to be more challenging than he. They were unusual and artistic renditions for anime, ones that seemed skewed at an audience that would appreciate them rather than require simplicity. Frankly, the art always reminded me more of Gankutsuo than anything else.

Actually, Carl did watch the entire series. As I indicated, I was quoting from his review of episodes 1-25 streamed. He also reviewed episodes 26-50, which I have not read yet since I haven't finished watching the series.

And I can't believe I have to say this to a poster for the second day in a row, but if you are going to discuss plot points of a series - LEARN TO USE SPOILER TAGS, FFS!!! Jesus, this is becoming annoying.

Stupid question, but what is preventing ANN from publishing the VideoScan numbers, at least for the top 10 or 20 anime DVD? Is there something in the VideoScan contract that prevents this?

Last edited by agila61 on Tue May 04, 2010 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total

Kalessin wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not claiming that no one wants to watch streams - my brother watches a ton of TV that way (much as I don't understand it) - but personally I find the quality to be far too low to even consider it. And truth be told, I won't pay for download-to-own unless it's completly DRM-free, which they're not about to do. I'll buy the DVDs or BDs when they come out, and I can watch them or rip them then, so I can get high quality, legitimate, DRM-free video (since the DRM on DVDs and BDs can be bypassed fairly easily). So I definitely pay for what I watch as long as it gets licensed for DVD/BD release in the US.

This is the difference between the moralizing approach and the marketing approach. If you are in the market for a series, then whether you have watched a torrent of a fansub is neither here nor there as far as the industry is concerned.

But then we see the rationalizers, who argue that even though they stay entirely outside the market, fansubs (and scanlations) "build the fanbase" - and its patent nonsense, since they will watch streams competing head to head against legit streams.

Quote:

But if I'm going to watch something before it gets released on video disc, fansubs are the only thing that I'll touch. The rest is either of too low quality and/or isn't DRM-free.

Of course, the 720p streams and higher streams seem to be reasonably high quality, but you do need the equipment and the network connection to be able to stream it, and if you are, eg, on a trip or a public transport commute, the network connection has to be mobile broadband, which is a few years down the track for that kind of bandwidth.

I watch shows for the story, so I am free to watch 480p and SD streams on my little netbook. In other words, we each represent distinct potential market segments - your market segment is more like the "audiophile" market segment in home stereo.

Quote:

As for price comparisons... well that's another story. It's hard to compare any of the possibilities whene none of them are truly equal (though some are closer than others).

The question for improving the current industry shake-out economics is where is a price point where the average revenue covers the fixed costs of that type of release, It is not the same windfall profits as the boom days, but one possible business model would be a production ladder:

(1) Simulcast streaming across R1, R2-ex-Japan and R4 funds the script and the initial digital AV preparation and expands the advertising income stream for broadcast anime
(2) Download sub income streams funds the full content license, and with a per-download royalty payment makes the production committee eager to enter into a license, because its "early money" and their finances are "paycheck to paycheck"
(3) Then download dub income only has to fund the dubbing itself
(4) Sales of physical media and/or cable television only has to cover the direct production costs and the balance is profit

Now, where the connoisseur segment of the market (that is, you and the segment of the market like you) settles down in that production ladder is not something I focus on. If the connoisseurs are presently in the market, I am going to assume that the surviving houses have sufficiently effective market feedback that they can keep up with the connoisseur's tastes and preferences.

To be clear, that is not saying its an unimportant market segment - but that the kind of innovation required to keep those fans inside the market is within the ordinary competencies of the surviving firms.

The less certain question is how to ensure that the long tail of the viewing audience is actually inside the market, contributing to the production ladder, and not outside the market, viewing the material without contributing - where watch ad-supported material does of course count as "contributing".

In terms of sub-downloads and DRM, if the sub-download is on a semi-subscription basis - $x for y downloads - and the files are redundantly digitally fingerprinted to the subscription, and agreements are in place with the main free streaming sites to reject files with the fingerprints and forward the file for inspection ... then $0.25/episode for DRM-free downloads seems like it might be viable, and it could be a price point that the market could bear.

I getcha now Maaya. Thank you for being so gracious in your reply. Smile

farix wrote:

Stupid question, but what is preventing ANN from publishing the VideoScan numbers, at least for the top 10 or 20 anime DVD? Is there something in the VideoScan contract that prevents this?

Yes, the data itself is copyrighted, and we can't even afford to subscribe ourselves. It's like $70k+ a year. Every once in a while someone with an account can share some info with us, but that's rare.

Kalessin wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not claiming that no one wants to watch streams - my brother watches a ton of TV that way (much as I don't understand it) - but personally I find the quality to be far too low to even consider it.

I don't really understand this, since a well-encoded stream is demonstrably DVD quality or better. Crunchyroll's HD streams (and our own forthcoming HQ player update) are both absolutely better quality than DVD, from both a resolution and an artifacting/signal-to-noise standpoint.

jsevakis wrote:

I don't really understand this, since a well-encoded stream is demonstrably DVD quality or better. Crunchyroll's HD streams (and our own forthcoming HQ player update) are both absolutely better quality than DVD, from both a resolution and an artifacting/signal-to-noise standpoint.

Every fan talks from their own preferences and their own experience, but the financial reality it that its a multi-segment market, where financial viability of a series has long rested on retasking the same basic content to tap multiple segments.

So in the "streaming or digital downloads" debate, the answer is clearly "yes". The idea that one is unambiguously superior is a bit silly.

They are are distinct market segments that each have their own market potential. And tapping both with the same media means that the financial break-even in each goes down.

For instance, one downside that keeps coming up with the discussion of streaming is the actual bandwidth of the internet connection and the strength of the equipment displaying the stream ... and I have experienced that. Our "non turbo" cable broadband can't keep up with 720p streams.

But by the same token, when I was watching CR streams or YouTube/Funimation streams on a computer that had trouble keeping up with 480p, I just switched down the resolution in the player. And if tomorrow I were to start sending the money to the cable company for "turbo" broadband, I would just change one setting in my CR account and all my streams would launch at the highest resolution they had available.

By contrast, if I were to, hypothetically, get a torrent download on my old Linux desk-bound laptop, and it was, hypothetically, too high resolution for the computer to keep up with ... its either start fumbling around with command line options to cut down the processing overhead (normally at the expense of video quality - not, of course, that I talk from experience), or delete the file and look around for a lower resolution file. And then the downloads that I have are all lower resolution.

{... and never never mind experiments with recoding video to play on my Palm Zire, because those were mostly music videos - at that resolution subtitles are unreadable ...}

I hadn't heard of her before, but that was a fun interview! She sounds like such a fangirl! Anime hyper

Shame that Queen's Blade and those 2 seasons of Ikki Tousen are getting dubs but Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei isn't. I did pick up a boxset of Genshiken recently, I'm surprised they didn't talk about that one at all.

BTW, merging the two discussions, you can test out how well the most excellent Erin can play in SD, 480p and 720p at Crunchyroll.

Crystal wrote:

Shame that Queen's Blade and those 2 seasons of Ikki Tousen are getting dubs but Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei isn't.

I can understand you being disappointed that a series you like isn't getting a dub, but why drag any other series into it? Sayonara wouldn't get a dub even if Queen's Blade and Ikki Tousen didn't exist. This isn't a zero sum game. So because your series isn't getting dubbed you think it's a "shame" that some series that other people like, are? Nice.

Blood-, I don't think the intent was to separate the two conditions. I didn't read Crystal's statement as, "If SZS =! dub, then dubs of QB and Ikki = shame," but rather, "(QB and Ikki = dub) AND (SZS =! dub) = shame." I think his position is that it's unfortunate that resources are allocated to dub two fluff shows while a good show goes wanting.

Personally, I have to agree with Merideth. Zetsubou Sensei just wouldn't work dubbed. I think for MB to even try it, the series would have to get a rewrite a la Sgt. Frog.

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