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NEWS: FBI Shuts Down Comics Scan Site


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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:58 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Most libraries receive their works as donations and can loan them out because they're exempt from copyright law. Most people don't know this, either.


Just to underline what others have said, the reason most people "don't know this" is because its a flat out lie. Its confusing "fair use" provisions that do indeed make some differences between what a commercial corporation can do and what a public library can do ... with the entirely legal lending of something that you own to somebody else.

Everyone has the right to lend a copy of a work if they are the legal owners of that copy. This is why video rental stores were found to be legal when they were challenged in court in the US in the late 70's.

"Copy-right" is about the right to make a copy of the work.

A scanlation breaks copyright when the work is scanned to be scanlated, unless they have permission from the copyright owner.

The uploader breaks copyright when the scanlation is uploaded, unless they have permission from the copyright owners (since the translated text has its own copyright).

The server breaks copyright when the file is served to someone using a scanlation site, unless they have permission from the copyright owners.

If its a torrent, the person doing the torrent download is breaking copyright with each packet they serve back to other torrent downloaders, unless they have permission from the copyright owners.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:12 pm Reply with quote
skafreak51 wrote:
Now start doing something about manga sites.

I don't mind that they exist, but it's annoying in the huge quantity that they're in, especially when people say

"what, you actually BUY comics?"
They'll be there, no mistake.
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-Wang-



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Onizuka666 wrote:
@Ian K

No chance of things getting as bad as China. The chinese have a warped culture of producing knock off and pirated goods going way back whenever, long before the net was born. While they're now becoming more affluent with a hint of capitalist on a big communist cake, their controls over such things have always been shady.


Cultural chauvinism, historical nonsense, and a lack of understanding of contemporary China, all in the same paragraph. Impressive.

1) Implying that Chinese culture somehow cultivates piracy is like saying Japanese culture somehow cultivates perversion and rape; and it's just as offensive.

2) China's been on the backburner for most of the last 200 years, neglecting industrialization, it's highlighted by Mao's "Great Leap Forward" which was a radical push from the rural society towards rapid industrialization, and ended up killing 70 million. The notion that somehow China was doing today's type of piracy of copying western goods for ages is laughable.

3) This is a pretty pivotal moment in China, while 70% of the population is still rural and rather poor, more and more opportunities are popping up for them to pull them out of poverty. You see those sweat shop like factories which produce so much of America's goods? Those are considered very good jobs, it's hard work but they make in a month what farmers make in a year. And what results is a mass internal migration to those production centers, and of course, local economy in those areas grow. You can make money by catering to those migrants, one of them being cheap pirated goods.


It's nothing special or somehow only applicable to China, all you need is semi-poor people who can once in awhile indulge. If we have another Great Depression like situation in America, I can guarantee you piracy will flourish.
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Ian K



Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:26 pm Reply with quote
@agila61


Quote:
What is Crunchyroll currently doing that is unethical?


Well, people outside of North America who signed up for their service have complained that they weren't made aware of what shows were blocked in their region and had no way to know what they were paying for. I would also suggest that their website design is an afront to good taste.

Sure, they seem to be in the clear now, legally speaking, but that doesn't mean they didn't break the law before. I remember back when they first went legit a number of people on this forum vowed never to use the sight because of the reputation it had developed for itself. I wasn't one of them, and I'm glad the new Cruncholl is here, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it's origins (necessary as they might have been). In fact, if you go back a couple of pages to the link to A Distant Soil website, you'd read about how this HTMLcomics guy was essentially trying to follow the same playbook as Crunchyroll: start illegal, become successful, get so big that the comic companies would rather work with you for a cut of the profits (all while still describing his site as a 'library' and a 'service to the community'. I can't say for sure that he was consciously trying to ape Crunchyroll -maybe 'good ideas' just struck twice.

As for me soiling their good name:
If they were really concerned about reputation (at least more than, say, money) we wouldn't be having this coversation.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
Uh, is this really serious enough for the FBI to be dealing with? Shouldn't they be, I don't know, stopping terrorists, or something?


The FBI deals in all sorts of crimes, and intellectual property is in their jurisdiction. They have different departments for different things,


And nobody complains about the X-Files. Laughing
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:43 pm Reply with quote
Lol, Mulder and Scully. I imagine they might of done better in the FBI's IP division, given their poor shooting skills [Fringe's Olivia Dunham however seems to have a rather deadly aim, so is quite suited to shooting down evil alternate dimension peoples :)]. Love, love the X-Files :)

Anyhoo, this is the first time the companies worked in unison on something, and given DH, CMX/DC publisher manga and the positive response it's had from publishers [I ignore the fandom rage, because it's pretty empty, meaningless anger- it's a lesson people need to learn at some point], I hope we'll see manga publishers do the same. Would something similar work for anime companies? I'm guessing they might be in as good a position, but given many of the aggregators run both anime and manga sites, it might be worthwhile for some anime publishes to tag along with the manga and comics publishers.
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jvowles
Otakon Representative


Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:16 pm Reply with quote
Dakaran wrote:
The problem is the streamlining of the publishers not giving access or cutting in half a series because they stopped in the middle and other things like that plus not giving access to a wide range of manga missed out otherwise.


No, that is *A* problem. It's actually an annoyance and an inconvenience. Just because it sucks, that does not make it a violation of law.

Quote:


Let people get the latest chapter like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece etc online within a week delay from Shonen Jump Japan? I really wouldn't want to miss out untranslated items but licensed and solid titles being already sold is another thing. Show a book as a sample and cut down the rest from those two major sites who helps the industry 's viewing and popularity with a huge fan base? How about telling fans where they can see those series, all of the series, legally so they have an alternative?


Getting translations done legally is something that (a) costs money to pay the translators, (b) requires involvement of people who are producing the original work, and (c) creates a wrinkle when negotiating for proper print distribution. There are rights issues involved.

Who will pay for that stuff? Because most series *fail* -- and the few huge hits pay for everything else. So who sticks their neck out on the off-chance a few English-speakers decide they want to read some Japanese comic book?

Quote:


You got to be careful there if you withdraw the scanalation...you ought to have a back up way to pick up the fans or you aren't helping yourselves but destroying your reach in the market with MUCH LESS exposure. " Think twice before you act". Offer a solution to fans that they can embrace, in the right timing, and I"m sure they will be pleased way much more about it. You'll want to get those fans back to you but without an alternative they will move on to something else. Don't discriminate smaller series because fans surely don't.


So they should give their stuff away for free, let others mistranslate and repost and screw around with it without the creators/owners having any recourse, on the off-chance that a tiny percentage might decide it's worth buying? How is that remotely a viable plan?

The cost to translate each page of manga professionally is much the same regardless of how popular it is; the cost of printing scales by the number of copies, but that's not true of the cost to translate. You do it once. So translating obscure crap costs the same as big popular crap. Their risk is the same because the upfront costs are the same.

Further, those localization costs are generally paid by the US distributor/licensor folks. They pay a fee to the owners and they work with them to get the US translation done (and despite the claims of some people, there ARE standards and there are Q/A steps), and then they earn a profit on what they sell.

Quote:

What you think is ok or not good, someone somewhere will like it so it's important more than ever to keep that in mind, be a positive thinker and publisher by giving fair exposure to all manga.


You seem to confuse "it would be awesome if everything worked this way" with "it would make business sense".
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TsukasaElkKite



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 3945
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:41 pm Reply with quote
I read the new chapters of Naruto as they come out, but I always buy the tankouban when they're released. Same with Loveless and Junjo Romantica. I'm a big supporter of "give the manga-ka the credit they deserve".

I read Kodomo no Jikan and Maria-sama ga Miteru online because they aren't licensed here and I would have no other way to do so.
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Olivine



Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 197
Location: Sol 3
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:42 pm Reply with quote
I'm not sure what shutting down one site out of probably thousands will do other than give Google a few more hits, and give the publishing companies a false sense of security. Its not like the other thousands of sites they didn't shut down won't welcome the new viewers. This really is just a waste of resources on their part. But hey, if the publishing companies want their figurative blankie, I guess they're legally entitled to it.

CSSYueh wrote:
Most I've bought are on the small size-smaller than ours-& on paper that's almost yellow when one buys it--very, very cheap paper.


What publishers did you buy from that put out the shoddy quality manga you're talking about? The manga from the publishers I've bought from (Media Factory, ASCII Media Works, Square Enix, and Ichijinsha) are the same size as english language manga, and were higher quality than the manga from english localization publishers in every respect. I'd like to know so I can avoid whatever publishers you bought from.

Ushio wrote:
I still rarely buy manga if it's complete and unedited but I won't touch Viz or Darkhorse and the reason is simple years ago I bought the monthly comics and GN of Urusei yatsura, Guyver and Patlabor from Viz all of which discontinued and 3x3 eyes (I even bought all the super manga blast) which is again cancelled and Exaxxion (were now going to butcher it) from Darkhorse.

So I spent a considerable amount of money to be as far as I'm concerned f**ked over and then they whinge when people stop paying hah. I now own more japanese manga than translated and so read scan's instead the original creators get there money but american companies can kiss my ass.


Fight the powa! Down with discontinued series! Down with inferior quality print, paper, and lack of book covers! Down with inferior selection and waiting for localization! Up with original manga! In Bk1.jp we trust. *continues humming the Japanese Language Manga Liberation Front's anthem*...

Although, you must know our dark lord Bk1.jp looks down upon scans. If you wish to sample the manga, you must buy the magazines, and fulfill the prophecy! Repent through sacrificing a harddrive/small animal to His Dark Majesty! Go forth, young acolyte, for the glory of Bk1.jp!
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ralphmerridew



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:50 pm Reply with quote
[quote=someone else]The FBI has more important things to do than to battle for artists and distributors. This isn't, nor has ever been, their role. I even recall the ex-FBI director stating he didn't approve of the FBI message on videos because it would lead people to believe it was their responsibility.[/quote]

The FBI is responsible for investigating federal crimes, and copyright has always been handled by federal law.

[quote=someone else]That's why I found it strange the FBI was involved in Death Note. People dying in Japan has nothing to do with the FBI. Wouldn't it be the CIA & they'd have just taken out the most likely suspects with snipers & no trace back to them? [/quote]

It was mentioned that the majority of the dead prisoners were American. (Though with 2 million people in prison and 5 million on parole, Light would probably get hand cramps before anybody noticed prisoners dying.)
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Altare



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:06 pm Reply with quote
"Potion Punch"
Until that is fixed, scanlations are just better. I'm not saying I won't buy manga though, but I would just read a scanlation.
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Jrittmayer



Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Posts: 304
Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:29 pm Reply with quote
I rarely read scanalations because I prefer having a physical copy in my hands to read.

HOWEVER, I would never have found out about (And consequently bought) HALF of my current manga and comic collection were it not for scanalations. Very Happy

Now I'm not condoning scanalations, because I know there are plenty of d-bags who never buy a single comic book or manga.

And then again, there's the argument that scanalations allow us to read manga that will never come to the United States (Or other country) which I think IS a valid one.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:29 pm Reply with quote
http://harlanellison.com/heboard/unca.htm Harlan Ellison apparently was involved in things- between his and Colleen Doran's comments, it seems a number of creators were involved in this and kept quiet about it until the big press release, so it's clear it's not just "corporations", it's also the people who write and draw the comics taking on these people.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:00 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
"Copy-right" is about the right to make a copy of the work.

A scanlation breaks copyright when the work is scanned to be scanlated, unless they have permission from the copyright owner.


I think this is the most important point underlying the entire scanlation issue.

By creating and distributing copyrighted works, scanlators are fundamentally taking the owner's rights for themselves without permission. There is no justification for this ~ legally, morally or ethically.

Scanlator's (and Fansubbers) opinions on how much they help the industry, their perceptions of the industry's practices and pricings, and any other justification they may make ~ are completely secondary to the rights of the original creators.

If the original creators want you to help the industry, they'll give you permission. If you think they're too far behind Japan's release schedule, then you can wait, or ask them to hurry up. If you think the price is too high, then don't buy their works, and let them know.

No matter how great the perceived sense of entitlement to these luxury items may be, no matter how great the perceived sense of helping the industry and spreading the love for manga may be ~ none of that justifies breaking the rights of the original creators.

I support the FBI and the U.S. comics publishers regarding the shutdown of this comics scan site.
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Number Six



Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 84
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:47 pm Reply with quote
I don't know. The press release reads more like a commercial for the law firm rather than a true information release like you would get from a real law enforcement agency. Yes the FBI was apparently involved, but the release was not from them. There are a lot of words in the release emphasizing how the web site was this big, bad copyright infringer and how taking it down is a mighty blow for the comic book industry. And oh, BTW, we (the law firm) were a full partner in this action.

The other curious thing I see is its mention of "criminal copyright infringement" What does that mean? Copyright infringement normally falls under the civil code, not criminal code. So, which is it? OK, I guess it could be both, but if there were violations of the criminal code, why didn't I see any mention of anyone getting arrested? All they apparently did was confiscate the guy's computers. A lawyer enriching lawsuit will follow, I'm sure.

Don't misunderstand. I am not here to defend the website or condone its actions. I have never heard of it and to be honest, I rarely read manga/comics. But just seems like the press release was more of a "Hey studios/publishers! Come to us for all your intellectual property rights needs! See how we were involved in taking down this evil doer!" commercial for the law firm. <shrug> However they want to drum up business I guess.
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