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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:22 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
The writing for the series gets such high praise from me because it does precisely that. You will likely not find a more serious and delicately-handled treatment of the subject matter (well, as long as you ignore the incongruously silly Next Episode bits) anywhere on film or digital file - not just anime.


Thanks for the reply.

As controversial as it might be, that does sound better than what I expected and tends to make me a bit more receptive towards the show.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:00 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:


I'm against the sexual exploitation of minors, in particular for an audience of older males. High school kids sending nude photos of each other to each other on facebook bothers me a lot less than most lolicon.


Um, seriously? The fact that a bunch creepy old dudes might be looking at nude photos of real life minors on the internet bothers you LESS then some animated drawings that probably only a tiny sliver of the population looks at, much less knows about it? Wow. Look, I'm not a fan and I usually find it offensive myself but all this handwringing is way overblown.
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eyeresist



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 995
Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney)
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:33 am Reply with quote
Sex is trouble, to coin a phrase.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:04 am Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:
I'm against the sexual exploitation of minors, in particular for an audience of older males. High school kids sending nude photos of each other to each other on facebook bothers me a lot less than most lolicon.


Um, seriously? The fact that a bunch creepy old dudes might be looking at nude photos of real life minors on the internet bothers you LESS then some animated drawings that probably only a tiny sliver of the population looks at, much less knows about it? Wow. Look, I'm not a fan and I usually find it offensive myself but all this handwringing is way overblown.


Except that's not really what she said at all? If is results in what you're talking about...well maybe then it's a different story. If it's just highschool kids looking a pictures of other kids though then I consider it much less of an issue as well.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:40 am Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:


I'm against the sexual exploitation of minors, in particular for an audience of older males. High school kids sending nude photos of each other to each other on facebook bothers me a lot less than most lolicon.


Um, seriously? The fact that a bunch creepy old dudes might be looking at nude photos of real life minors on the internet ...


So note the original intent in this scenario: HS students are sharing nude photos of each other to each other.

Quote:
... bothers you LESS then some animated drawings that probably only a tiny sliver of the population looks at, much less knows about it?


Note the original intent in this scenario: to make money from the sexual obsessions of a bunch of creepy twenty and thirty something dudes in Japan.

Quote:
Wow. Look, I'm not a fan and I usually find it offensive myself but all this handwringing is way overblown.


Remember the original context in the podcast ... the assumptions made about people who say they work for an anime website by people who don't look at anime getting their information second hand from scandal sheets and outrage peddlers.

Sure. its a foolish thing for the HS students to do, because there is no guarantee that the photos will stay private. OTOH, compared to binge drinking or joy riding, its not the most dangerous thing a teenager might be doing.

But the anime production is a business, and they know perfectly well what markets they are targeting.
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Ktimene's Lover



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert)
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:07 pm Reply with quote
I don't if Theron is the way I imagined he sounded or not. Though I did see a videon of what a Midwest accent sounds like, the only types of American English accents that really sound really out there to me are Texas and those thick Southern accents. I am talking about especially the Alabama accents.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:40 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
rinmackie wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:
I'm against the sexual exploitation of minors, in particular for an audience of older males. High school kids sending nude photos of each other to each other on facebook bothers me a lot less than most lolicon.


Um, seriously? The fact that a bunch creepy old dudes might be looking at nude photos of real life minors on the internet bothers you LESS then some animated drawings that probably only a tiny sliver of the population looks at, much less knows about it? Wow. Look, I'm not a fan and I usually find it offensive myself but all this handwringing is way overblown.


Except that's not really what she said at all? If is results in what you're talking about...well maybe then it's a different story. If it's just highschool kids looking a pictures of other kids though then I consider it much less of an issue as well.


Yes, I know what she said but there's always the possibility of someone other than HS kids looking at those nude photos. Also we're talking about real life people vs. drawings. Erin seemed to be saying she thought drawings of nude, sexualized minors were more dangerous than the real thing.
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kyokun703



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:45 pm Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:

Yes, I know what she said but there's always the possibility of someone other than HS kids looking at those nude photos. Also we're talking about real life people vs. drawings. Erin seemed to be saying she thought drawings of nude, sexualized minors were more dangerous than the real thing.

No, what she *clearly* said was teenagers looking at pictures of other teenagers was less bothersome than lolicon because of the age difference.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 810
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:13 pm Reply with quote
If an underage person takes a nude photo of him/herself, that person can be charged for child pornography (creating, distributing, etc.) And whoever receives it can be charged by receiving it (even if they are also a minor). Just so you know.
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vickylee



Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:53 pm Reply with quote
She knows what she said, didn't she???????????
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:24 am Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
Yes, I know what she said but there's always the possibility of someone other than HS kids looking at those nude photos. Also we're talking about real life people vs. drawings.


Yes, as I noted its not advised, but teenagers do silly things. (As jenthehen notes, depending on jurisdiction it may also be illegal, but depending on jurisdiction so may be teenage binge drinking, and joy riding is illegal in almost every jurisdiction ... the degrees of foolishness scale was not a degrees of legality scale).

Quote:
Erin seemed to be saying she thought drawings of nude, sexualized minors were more dangerous than the real thing.


There's a difference in age, and a difference in the activity, and if you toss aside those two differences, that would be ignoring what Erin said in order to arrived at what she "seemed to say".
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Olivine



Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 197
Location: Sol 3
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:30 am Reply with quote
People are still confusing moe and loli after all this time? I remember looking at threads here two years ago, and people were using the terms synonymously. Honestly, how have people not picked it up by now? Especially the staff of a anime news site?

Also, I've never really understood the loli-fandom bashing. No other fandom gets dehumanized like they do. Just look at the podcast. Zac had his whole big theory about how moe/loli fandom started on forums because it was so 'edgy' and 'taboo,' and that the fans were all misanthropic teenagers that wanted to be cool on the internet. Then he goes on about how they are all shutins that do nothing but wank off and talk on internet forums about how much they love wanking off to lolis. He constantIy refers to them as "those people." I mean, really? He shouldn't be boggled that loli fans come soapboxing on the forums trying to defend themselves when he and others talk about them in such a derogatory, insulting way. Its disgusting.

Moe gets bashed on the podcast too for some reason (by all three people in the podcast). I really don't get this. Is there something inherently offensive about Air, Kanon, and Clannad? Zac references them, and then says he would have gotten out of the business years ago if he knew they were going to be made. I need someone to explain the moe hate to me. Really, moe is about as harmless as it gets.
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Cheesecracker



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 240
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:30 am Reply with quote
I've been chewing on this thought for a while...so it's not a 'hot-blooded' venting of 'impotent nerd/fan-boy rage'

I used to be a be a fan of Zac as the Answerman(past tense, just because he's not doing it anymore). I was impressed by the completeness and insightful quality that he often infused his answers with. I happily tuned in each week...until he gave the first of many short and dismissive opinions...that I just happened not to agree with. Sure my knickers got in a twist(and I still find it obnoxious), but I really do think that it's generally more along the lines of playful conversational ball-busting/titty-twisting than flat out snarky thin skinned jerkishness.

Feel free to correct me.

Anyway, it can be like whiplash between the two approaches. I think the missing component that would normally allow it to just pass is the ability to actually reply in real time.(ie. 'show X s*cked hot steaming manatee &^$*&' 'Yeah? Well, that just proves you're a donkey's &^$* with a melon on top' ...and move on.) It has occurred like that between Justin and Zac on the podcast. Even with that understanding, from the outside it can be frustratingly one-sided. It would be nice to just reply 'seriously?', 'why?' or 'c'mon, you can do better than that'.

Now that education level has been invoked (it seemed like it was meant as a validating factor) it just makes it more frustrating. For myself, more so I want to hear that education displayed in the answer. Now when I hear the short sharp answers I have a hard time not feeling like it's a short-hand to superiority(ie. 'foolish mortals, you just don't get it') or even a cop out('because it's my podcast, that's why'). Well, since it's true, maybe that's not a cop out.

I got my degree in fine art and made a career of it for longer than I care to admit. While education might allow you to understand more, I don't think education makes one 'enjoy better' or more justifiably/accurately, just differently. Some people view the kind of dissection that 'educated' people often engage in tedious or deflating or just plain annoying among other things. Most people just want to watch a bird fly, not necessarily know how or why.

The 'enlightened' focus that education can give one can actually invert itself into narrow or closed mindedness. Many modern artists now found in the history books were given a lot of crap for deviating from the norm...ironically(?) by the people who were supposed to know better.

I personally am fine with a difference of opinion, but I wanna hear the 'why'? The sharp comments are like a poke in the eye or a challenge or even an insult...whatever. Given the likelihood that Zac is not going to change, it'd be better for people to learn to get over it. Still, comedic or not, some people can't and when they come after you, I'd like to see you 'own it' a little more.
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Zac
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ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Olivine wrote:

Also, I've never really understood the loli-fandom bashing. No other fandom gets dehumanized like they do.


I think this is a little melodramatic.

Yeah, loli fans get poked a lot, and they usually poke back just as hard (some of the bile that's been said and written about me as a result of being vocal about my opposition to the loli trend is fine evidence of that). I'm never confused about why they defend themselves when they get made fun of, but I do wish they'd have more of a sense of humor about it. More often than not I'm just making fun of the trend.

In all honesty and sincerity I meant what I said on the show - I really do not care what you enjoy behind closed doors and you have every right to enjoy and consume whatever you like, regardless of what I think of it. However if you come on the forums and talk about 'delicious flat chests' and the 'real lolis' you saw at the grocery store, I'm gonna tell you you're creeping me out. And that's gonna cause a conflict. Always has, always will.

Quote:
Just look at the podcast. Zac had his whole big theory about how moe/loli fandom started on forums because it was so 'edgy' and 'taboo,' and that the fans were all misanthropic teenagers that wanted to be cool on the internet.


It's just my theory. It attracted a certain type of fan who legitimately found the material appealing, party because it is taboo. I've heard so many people say they love it because they find it edgy and envelope-pushing that I don't see how that statement could be inaccurate. The misanthropic teenager thing is kind of a joke, but it's also kinda true, I think. Not every fan is the same and every generalization can be proven false with anecdotal contrarian examples, for sure, but I don't think 'misanthropic teenager' is a completely invalid label.

Nor is it really intended to be an insult. Which is important to remember. I was once a misanthropic teenager. Most of us were.

Quote:

Then he goes on about how they are all shutins that do nothing but wank off and talk on internet forums about how much they love wanking off to lolis.


This is a willful misreading of what I said. I never said shutins. I was describing the exact same thing that happens in every fandom that survives online - like-minded people form a hive. Happens with Harry Potter fans, furries, DC Comics devotees, all of it. Again, it's an indelicate way to describe it, but I'm not a particularly delicate person. Which is what gets me in trouble, I suppose.

Quote:

He constantIy refers to them as "those people." I mean, really?


Er, no offense but this is awfully sensitive and reactionary. I don't constantly refer to loli fans as "those people" in some attempt to other them or make them into some kind of enemy group. Yeesh.

Quote:
He shouldn't be boggled that loli fans come soapboxing on the forums trying to defend themselves when he and others talk about them in such a derogatory, insulting way. Its disgusting.


I'm never "boggled" by it. Nor do I think what I say is really all that horrible or insulting, and I have heard from a whole lot of people who agree with my views on it. So there are two sides here, and no, I don't believe there's a 'victim' involved.

Quote:
Moe gets bashed on the podcast too for some reason (by all three people in the podcast). I really don't get this. Is there something inherently offensive about Air, Kanon, and Clannad? Zac references them, and then says he would have gotten out of the business years ago if he knew they were going to be made. I need someone to explain the moe hate to me. Really, moe is about as harmless as it gets.


Well, that last bit was a joke. To expand on that premise, if you showed 18-year old Evangelion fan me in 1998 an episode of Clannad and said "this is what most anime is like in 2010" yeah I'd probably be pretty turned off, but then if you put on an ep of House of Five Leaves I'd be like "oh, OK, cool."

And no, there isn't anything inherently offensive about those shows. I like making fun of things, and so I make fun of those shows, especially because they get treated like these sacred cows, immune from all criticism. That's it.

To be perfectly honest, I don't "hate" moe with any sincere conviction, I just don't subscribe to its philosophy, haven't really enjoyed any of the shows that feature it heavily (so far - I'm enjoying Toradora but I don't think that's considered moe by the fans - you tell me?), and am personally kinda peeved by the fact that in the last couple years like 2/3rds of any given season is all moe or moe fanservice comedies, which are genres I don't really like. It's impotent complaining, nothing more.

Cheesecracker wrote:
I really do think that it's generally more along the lines of playful conversational ball-busting/titty-twisting than flat out snarky thin skinned jerkishness.


The former is certainly how I intend it to be. I think I often fail at the tone, though, and I accept responsibility for that. You can't really joke around as much as I do on a regular basis and expect people to always understand how you meant something. That's my fault for just not taking seriously something that many people take very seriously, and it gets me in trouble.
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outlaw55



Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:40 pm Reply with quote
I have to say, I've enjoyed listening to this podcast, as it feels very down to earth and fun at times, but I do have to say, several times, including the lumping lolicon and moe together, you guys seem very out of touch with the current anime trends to and extent that you don't seem to understand it at all. The not liking stuff doesn't bother people as much as misbranding stuff. I know there were debates in this thread as to the "true meaning of moe" but typically it's not sexual (aside from a light innocent joke here or there). I'm pretty sure there were plenty of shows back in the day that would "technically" be moe if it were released today (with a slight adjustment to the cuteness), so it's not really anything new, it's just the fact that it has a "genre" now and there is a lot of it...
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