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Zac
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:58 pm Reply with quote
outlaw55 wrote:
I have to say, I've enjoyed listening to this podcast, as it feels very down to earth and fun at times, but I do have to say, several times, including the lumping lolicon and moe together, you guys seem very out of touch with the current anime trends to and extent that you don't seem to understand it at all.


I'll take responsibility for that. I believe I full well understand the two concepts and the distinctions between them, but I am woefully indelicate and not very careful about how I choose my words when speaking about it. As a result the two get blended together in the conversation and for more sensitive fans, it's a total distraction.

One thing I will say is that for many fans, myself included, in our heads we kinda lump the two together as "stuff we don't like", and as a result the two are often mentioned in the same breath. It's not a misunderstanding as much as it is irresponsible language choice. I have to admit much of the time my response to people who complain afterward that I didn't use the right term is "get over it, you know what I meant" but I think the fear is that others listening who don't understand the distinction might become misinformed. It may not be all that important to me, but it's my responsibility to be more careful about language choice.
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1874
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:34 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I don't "hate" moe with any sincere conviction, I just don't subscribe to its philosophy, haven't really enjoyed any of the shows that feature it heavily (so far - I'm enjoying Toradora but I don't think that's considered moe by the fans - you tell me?)


2009 Anime Saimoe Tournament (Japan)
Winner: Taiga Aisaka
2009 Best Moe Tournament (Korea)
Winner: Taiga Aisaka

A lot of people who take such things rather seriously do seem to consider Taiga moe, at any rate. Laughing Since I personally do not subscribe to the classification of moe as a genre, I'll leave the determination of whether of not the show itself should be considered as such to those who do.
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eyevocal



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:05 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
nightjuan wrote:
I don't know if Theron is right about Koi Kaze, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Though unless it has a truly mature take on the obviously creepy subject matter and the writing backs that up as seriously as possible, the whole thing just sounds like it would be fighting an uphill battle. Still, I won't write it off for now.

The writing for the series gets such high praise from me because it does precisely that. You will likely not find a more serious and delicately-handled treatment of the subject matter (well, as long as you ignore the incongruously silly Next Episode bits) anywhere on film or digital file - not just anime.

After reading the manga, erm, illicitly, I thought that the anime suffered in comparison. While the manga showed that Koshiro was obviously struggling with the way things were developing, in the anime he seemed to be grouchy until he finally softened near the end. Maybe it was too subtle for me to pick up. Apart from that, I agree that the story and design didn't fetishize Nanoka, and did handle the subject matter carefully--and, to top if off, Nanoka seemed to initiate the idea of falling in love herself, so it wasn't a predatory thing.

e/v.
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eyevocal



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:20 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
Pixy Misa wrote:
I can't believe I registered to defend Popotan. Confused
[snip]
But the show is, against all odds, actually good.

Here's my review. The production values were OK, but there was no ending.

Yes, it had one. It was basically Ai, Mai and Mii facing up to the fact that traveling through time and space is their lot in life, and the people who they grew to know and love throughout the series finding (and stating to them) that the sisters weren't the same sort of people they originally knew when they stayed in one spot. I'd hardly call it the greatest anime ever, but I did like it enough to buy it. For those of you misguided souls who think this means I groove on youngest sister Mii, I sez, "Nuts to you." Eldest sister Ai (obviously a woman, with a balcony you can recite Shakespeare from) is my favourite. The other female characters are interesting, yes, but architecture's my thing.

e/v.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:00 pm Reply with quote
I don't consider moe to be a genre, either. To me, it's an element. So a character can be moe, or a situation can be moe, but a show can't be moe (although it can be saturated with moe). I'm sure that's clear as mud.

I don't think of Toradora! itself as having that much moe content, but there more than a whiff of it on Taiga. She's the (basically) parentless little waif (albeit very fiesty one) who Ryuji cooks for, cleans up after and generally takes care of. That's pretty moe. But if I had to identify Toradora!, I'd call it a school romance comedy.
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erinfinnegan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:04 pm Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
Yes, I know what she said but there's always the possibility of someone other than HS kids looking at those nude photos.

It's the difference between the intended audience and the unintended audience. If you see a non-friends-locked nude photo because the person posting it was an idiot about security, that's not so bad.

However, if you take that photo you shouldn't have seen and post it all around the internet, that makes you a distributor of child porn.

jenthehen wrote:
If an underage person takes a nude photo of him/herself, that person can be charged for child pornography (creating, distributing, etc.) And whoever receives it can be charged by receiving it (even if they are also a minor). Just so you know.

There was a recent case in real life about this, in the real news. That's why I brought it up.

Olivine wrote:

Also, I've never really understood the loli-fandom bashing. No other fandom gets dehumanized like they do.

Cosplayers get bashed sometimes. Furries get bashed a lot, too. Hipsters get bashed all the time (by the mass media and also my friends) and they're not a fandom at all. People just like bashing on each other. I've heard that in the deaf community, born-deaf people are jerks to people-who-went-deaf and vice versa.

Also I got into anime when I was a misanthropic teenager, perhaps because I was a misanthropic teenager.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I don't consider moe to be a genre, either. To me, it's an element.


Genre and element aren't mutually incompatible. Many movies feature action scenes without being action movies but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as an action movie.

If a title is largely built around characters consciously designed to exhibit moe attributes, if its narrative deliberately incorporates moe tropes and if it is primarily marketed (in Japan) towards the portion of the audience who are actively seeking moe content - if, in other words, being moe is its very raison d'être - it makes little sense to object it being referred to as a moe title.

Genres have hazy, shifting, overlapping borders but it would be difficult to discuss pop-culture without reference to them and that's as true of anime and manga as it is of anything else.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:45 am Reply with quote
I understand where you are coming from Moomintroll, but I don't agree. Let's use a different example. Vampires are pretty popular. There are titles built around vampires, which incorporate vampire tropes and are marketed towards an audience actively seeking vampire content. That doesn't mean "vampire" is a genre.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:09 am Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:
If a title is largely built around characters consciously designed to exhibit moe attributes, if its narrative deliberately incorporates moe tropes and if it is primarily marketed (in Japan) towards the portion of the audience who are actively seeking moe content - if, in other words, being moe is its very raison d'être - it makes little sense to object it being referred to as a moe title.


This has always been my contention. How can you look at a series like Kanon or Clannad and object to it being classified as a "moe title" when the moe elements in them are so obvious (to those who know what moe is, anyway) and pervasive?

And Blood-: while I understand your position, vampires probably isn't the best thing to use as an example. Vampire tales aren't as stylistically distinctive as moe-focused titles are.

However, I do agree with your earlier assessment about Toradora! I never saw Taiga as particularly moe, so I was quite surprised when I first heard she won the Saimoe tournament, but when you put it that way, I suppose I can see how others might.
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keikanki



Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:48 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
And Blood-: while I understand your position, vampires probably isn't the best thing to use as an example. Vampire tales aren't as stylistically distinctive as moe-focused titles are.


Vampire movies, not stylistically distinctive? I think NPR pop culture critic Eric Nuzum would disagree. Vampirism and vampiric themes have been prevalent since the earliest days of film not to mention literature. I think Blood-'s comparison is very apt. If anything, it's the brief history of moe that doesn't quite measure up to comparison.

Also, when you speak of moe being highly stylistically distinctive, I get the impression you're focusing on Air/Clannad/Kanon and Rie Kugimiya's characters, not so much variations like Azumanga Daioh, Haruhi, Lucky Star & Higurashi which are also very popular among moe devotees?
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:32 am Reply with quote
I hate to pedantic here - aw, who am I kidding; I LOVE to be supah pedantic! - but stylistic distinctiveness does not a genre make. Don't like my vampire example? How about the term "chick flick?" I don't believe "chick flick" is a genre the way we understand "drama" or "comedy" or "horror" to be a genre.

...

LOOK, JUST BLINDLY ACCEPT MY POSITION AND DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, MMMKAY??? Otherwise I'll go all moe on your ass and hunt you down and...and...clean your place or look after you when you get sick or something. I'm totally cereal. Wink
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erinfinnegan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:41 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I understand where you are coming from Moomintroll, but I don't agree. Let's use a different example. Vampires are pretty popular. There are titles built around vampires, which incorporate vampire tropes and are marketed towards an audience actively seeking vampire content. That doesn't mean "vampire" is a genre.

I know Blood- is sick of this already, but... Vampires are a great example of what everyone is getting at. Although vampires are probably accepted as a horror sub-genre, some may argue that vampire titles are a genre. That said, a lot of non-horror TV shows will have the occasional vampire episode.

It's like, you can have a tsundere character in a non-moe show. I had something else to say but now I'm stuck thinking about tsundere vampires.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:55 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
[It's like, you can have a tsundere character in a non-moe show. I had something else to say but now I'm stuck thinking about tsundere vampires.


"I'm- I'm sucking your blood but not for you or anything!"
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