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The Count



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 299
Location: Milwaukee,WI
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:39 am Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
Another great podcast. It was really interesting to meet more of the ANN staff and to hear a bit of their backgrounds and review philosophies (especially outside the context of the occasional forum explosion when someone gives a fan-favorite a poor review). And maybe it's totally off-topic for an anime podcast but all the film discussion is quite welcome too.

vashfanatic wrote:
No, no, no, "Midwestern" is the Iowa-Wisconsin accent that I have. Very Happy Indiana is a whole 'nother game.
Hey, what are you talking about? Wisconsinites don't have accents. Razz
That's funny. Not to long ago I was playing BFBC 2 on PSN and someone said I have a Wisconsin accent and I had no idea what they meant Confused . But I can find a Minnesotan pretty quick by there accent.
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mckg1



Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 286
Location: From Puerto Rico living in Japan
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:57 am Reply with quote
I gatta say this ANNCAST was pretty cool, its a little longer then some o the previous Pod Casts, but this one is one of the best ones out. Very Happy
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Blood-
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 21297
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:58 am Reply with quote
Very interesting podcast. Noah's comment about how hearing our own opinions validated (or echoed) by another is one of the most pleasurable sensations made me smile, but it reminded me that there is a negative pleasure to be had in reading an opinion with which you strongly disagree, as well. That's not a soothing experience, but it has its own entertainment value.

Zac's rhapsodizing about how a film school education heightens your perceptions beyond the ken of the Great Unwashed had me projectile vomiting. It reminded me that film schools rarely produce film-makers of any worth, but when it comes to fostering a smug, pretentious attitude, they are peerless.

Also some advice to Zac and Erin - especially, Erin - if you intend to persist in podcasting, could you please make some effort to excise the word "like" from your vocabulary, because it, like, makes you sound, like, kinda, like, you know, like, bush league.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 810
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Wow ...Twilight may be awful, but Bella is not impregnated by the werewolf - if she had been, I think I would have liked it better, because Jacob > Edward. You are totally correct about the baby imprinting, though, unfortunately.


How could you guys not mention the movie about which I am MOST excited about???? SEX AND THE CITY 2!!!!!! Jeez .... MEN! haha Very Happy
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Zac
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ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:01 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:

Zac's rhapsodizing about how a film school education heightens your perceptions beyond the ken of the Great Unwashed had me projectile vomiting. It reminded me that film schools rarely produce film-makers of any worth, but when it comes to fostering a smug, pretentious attitude, they are peerless.

Also some advice to Zac and Erin - especially, Erin - if you intend to persist in podcasting, could you please make some effort to excise the word "like" from your vocabulary, because it, like, makes you sound, like, kinda, like, you know, like, bush league.


I find it really hilarious that you resort to being smug and condescending in order to devalue being educated about something. I guess making fun of ourselves for being pretentious wasn't enough for you?

Then again you're usually peddling lazy populist BS about how noble it is to just love Z-grade sex comedies so it doesn't shock me that you feel threatened by anyone talking about entertainment beyond "i liked the boobies and the fart jokes!".

As for your second comment, sorry, I was raised in the southwest and continue to live here. "Like" is and forever will be part of my vocabulary. You'd know all aboot obnoxious regional dialects, though, wouldn't you?
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4nBlue





PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:10 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Ranma824 wrote:
I really don't understand the ire people have about the genre.


Start with the general annoyance with lazy fanservice pandering in general in ruining what could otherwise have been fun romps by, for example, taking every female teenage character design to the plastic surgeons for breast enlargement before enrolling in HS, with a mandatory quota of panty shots and shirts that mysteriously explode when punched.

Ah, but someone can "look past" that fan service to see whether anything else is there when you do. Which means tolerating the incessant tedious fan service to watch the show.

And then throw into the mix the clear sexualization of pre-teen girls as the fan service. And some people's internal excuse makers seize up and they simply cannot look past that.

And then throw on top the professional outrage industry trying to generate outrage from it in the hopes that they can shake money out of contributors that have been brought into a state of outrage.

And if you really aren't interested in lolicon, and you see more and more lolicon injected into series as a marketing gimmick, its a quite normal reaction to wish that it would simply go away.

Your post is complaining about fanservice, not moe. Ranma824 talked about moe in the post you quoted, and you used it as a launch pad for a rant against fanservicy anime like Ikkitousen and Queen's Blade, that I have not seen mentioned even by the greatest moe bashers as moe series.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:41 pm Reply with quote
4nBlue wrote:
Your post is complaining about fanservice, not moe. Ranma824 talked about moe in the post you quoted, and you used it as a launch pad for a rant against fanservicy anime like Ikkitousen and Queen's Blade, that I have not seen mentioned even by the greatest moe bashers as moe series.


Agila wasn't complaining about fanservice in Queen'sBlade/other ladies with big boobies shows, which he explained pretty well most fans can tolerate.

He was making a point that lolicon for many fans crosses a point in their brains that they can't just tolerate. I experience lots of cognitive dissonance as to how people can equate that stuff as being anywhere in the realm of acceptable entertainment, and I'm not the only one. Like Erin, I wish it'd just all go away, and that it's fans would just stop talking about/defending it.

I think you took a completely different reading of Agila's post then he intended. One's just trashy fanservice, while he was moreso talking about the most sinister aspects of the Lollipop Guild's fandom, which some Moe shows feed into [but not all].

And of course, the fact that lots of people overlook or avoid acknowledging how many Moe shows are based on pornographic video games. I liked the AIR movie, but I am not going to pretend it's fandom is purely innocent. Some people do like it for the story and cute characters, and there is a range of fans for whom that's solely what it's about, but there's also the people buying the dojins, games and skeevy merchandise based on some of these shows, so yeah, there is a darker side to moe.


Last edited by Paploo on Sat May 15, 2010 2:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:46 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I guess making fun of ourselves for being pretentious wasn't enough for you?


NO!

You must crawl on your hands and knees and grovel - GROVEL I SAY!!! - to make up for not only going to film school but admitting!! it in public! !!

And also !!!

State school wasn't it? That takes some of the edge off, but not much.
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Splitter



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 1276
Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:20 pm Reply with quote
Loved all the movie talk, but there's only one point I really want to make:

I hate critics who say that their position means they can't be objective. You choose not to be objective. You choose to lord your opinion. This excuse that a critic's job means being entirely subjective is effectively killing the entire industry of paid critics, making their voices worthless because no one is going to give any credence to someone who just wants to listen to the sound of their own voice.


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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:21 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
4nBlue wrote:
Your post is complaining about fanservice, not moe. Ranma824 talked about moe in the post you quoted, and you used it as a launch pad for a rant against fanservicy anime like Ikkitousen and Queen's Blade, that I have not seen mentioned even by the greatest moe bashers as moe series.


Agila wasn't complaining about fanservice in Queen'sBlade/other ladies with big boobies shows, which he explained pretty well most fans can tolerate.

He was making a point that lolicon for many fans crosses a point in their brains that they can't just tolerate. I experience lots of cognitive dissonance as to how people can equate that stuff as being anywhere in the realm of acceptable entertainment, and I'm not the only one. Like Erin, I wish it'd just all go away, and that it's fans would just stop talking about/defending it.

I think you took a completely different reading of Agila's post then he intended. One's just trashy fanservice, while he was moreso talking about the most sinister aspects of the Lollipop Guild's fandom, which some Moe shows feed into [but not all].

And of course, the fact that lots of people overlook or avoid acknowledging how many Moe shows are based on pornographic video games. I liked the AIR movie, but I am not going to pretend it's fandom is purely innocent.


It's acceptable entertainment if it doesn't go against your morals or your beliefs. I find some lolicon acceptable but not everything. The more hardcore lolicon stuff I would say well that's just crossing the line for my tastes.

While it's true that some people do overlook that some Moe shows are based off of H games, some people don't know until after they watch the show. If you look at it from the view point of that you didn't know until after you watching a series (Air for example), or never knew at all you could say then the fandom is somewhat innocent. If you come from the viewpoint of that you know what it's source material is, but fail to acknowledge it, then some of the fandom is not innocent.
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Ranma824



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 456
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:55 pm Reply with quote
asimpson2006 wrote:
Paploo wrote:
And of course, the fact that lots of people overlook or avoid acknowledging how many Moe shows are based on pornographic video games. I liked the AIR movie, but I am not going to pretend it's fandom is purely innocent.

While it's true that some people do overlook that some Moe shows are based off of H games, some people don't know until after they watch the show. If you look at it from the view point of that you didn't know until after you watching a series (Air for example), or never knew at all you could say then the fandom is somewhat innocent. If you come from the viewpoint of that you know what it's source material is, but fail to acknowledge it, then some of the fandom is not innocent.

Honestly, who the hell cares!?

"This show came from an H game, I must not allow myself to enjoy it. And if I do enjoy it, I must constantly remind myself that some people fap to this."

Either like the show, or don't. If you learn after the fact that source material was pron, so what? It doesn't make your experience/emotional connection to the show "tainted", or something ridiculous like that.

Also, the majority of the actual pron in these games is pretty LOL.
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Farix



Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 152
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:59 pm Reply with quote
At random points in the podcast, the audio level would go up for a second or two and then lower back down. I'm not sure if this is the result of people moving around in proximity to the mics, but it is really annoying. I'm not sure if something like Levelator would help, but it is worth a try.
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Ranma824 wrote:
"This show came from an H game, I must not allow myself to enjoy it. And if I do enjoy it, I must constantly remind myself that some people fap to this."

Either like the show, or don't. If you learn after the fact that source material was pron, so what? It doesn't make your experience/emotional connection to the show "tainted", or something ridiculous like that.

Also, the majority of the actual pron in these games is pretty LOL.


Not saying people shouldn't watch or enjoy these shows, just saying they should keep that in mind when giving sermons on the sanctity of Moe.

Some moe is just general cute entertainment stuff, but there's also the darker side of it to keep in mind. One can enjoy one without indulging or endorsing in the other. Which is probably why most of these anime adaptations are cleaned up for general, wider audiences (though time to time, some aren't- just look at the relatively cutesy To Heart anime released by RightStuf, and the slight skeeve of the manga version ADV put out), much like the Playstation ports of the games.

And again, the conversation is less so about moe, moreso about the more distasteful progression of some fans towards lolicon material, which is mostly what Zac and Erin's conversation in that bit of the podcast concerned [I think the term cancer was pretty apt on Zacs part- before anyone jumps at me for that, be sure to listen to the podcast to get the context :)].


Last edited by Paploo on Sat May 15, 2010 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Splitter wrote:

I hate critics who say that their position means they can't be objective. You choose not to be objective. You choose to lord your opinion. This excuse that a critic's job means being entirely subjective is effectively killing the entire industry of paid critics, making their voices worthless because no one is going to give any credence to someone who just wants to listen to the sound of their own voice.


When you talk about critics being "objective", what does that actually mean? Unless we're using very different meanings of the word, objective in this context to me implies the existence of a view about a movie that is factually accurate and which can be verified by all observers. Which is clearly not the case.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:04 pm Reply with quote
4nBlue wrote:
Your post is complaining about fanservice, not moe. Ranma824 talked about moe in the post you quoted, and you used it as a launch pad for a rant against fanservicy anime like Ikkitousen and Queen's Blade,


You need to get more into the "paragraph" concept. Reread starting with "and then throw lolicon into the mix".

Its not moe generically that generates the strongest reaction. Its lolicon where the term moe gets used as a euphemism, and of course euphemism plays an active part in the excuse making.

Moe generically seems to result in a lot of bad anime with no character development and the shallowest excuses of a plotline ... similar to excessive fan service in general ... but given the horrible collapse of the rest of the anime market in Japan, if it sells product and keeps anime production houses in Tokyo in business, well, whatever.

As its critics note, its too narrow a foundation with too little appeal outside a small niche to build on for long-term success ... but most creative fields go through cycles like that.

Hell, I'd prefer more science fiction / fantasy to be like Scrapped Princess or Last Exile than another Mecha Insertion Fantasy show ... but GITS:SAC is brilliant and the Tachikoma and exoskeletons add rather than distract, and Vision of Escaflowne is a pleasant fantasy that gains an extra dimension from the steampunkish mecha.

So its not the trope, but more whether it adds to the series, or its just a crutch.

Lolicon goes beyond "cultural quirk" and into the territory of wondering about people who are unable to see what is so icky about it.
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