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Shelf Life - Apples and Oranges


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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:19 am Reply with quote
You want to:
erinfinnegan wrote:
it's certainly not going to win me any friends in this country.


Yet you said:
erinfinnegan wrote:
Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes.


Because that's not going to win you any friends unless they're a bunch of prudes. Sad

I don't know, the mangaka of Gunslinger Girls might like his little girls, but I'm not going to judge a work by what else he has done, nor by what people do with it. That would be kind of disrespectful to the artist's professionalism and integrity, and disrespectful of the medium and more importantly, the people who brought to life a comic into the anime format.
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Stretch24



Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Ohio
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:54 am Reply with quote
I just don't see how anybody in their right mind could be sexually turned on by the girls in this heartbreaking series. That's like saying that the fact that they are in horriffic situations only makes you want to ---- them even more. But this is one of the most brilliant, intense shows I've ever seen (and I've watched all or part of over 700). Anybody who refuses to watch it because they've associated it with "lolicon" is only hurting themself.

Here's the amateur review I wrote about season one back in 2006:

The thing that struck me about this show is the way I immediately "bonded" with Henrietta, feeling sorry for her and almost imploring God that this poor child enjoy a little peace and happiness somehow. Right from the first episode this show grabbed my heartstrings, and I could not wait to see how things would work out between her and her "handler", Guise. Nothing like these feelings came to me during Kite or Noir, two other anime about female assasins. Henrietta and her comrades, after all, are little more than children and did not volunteer to be assasins, which is a clever "spin" on the cute-girls-with-guns genre. They are fascinating in that they exhibit both childish innocence and indifference to the people they've been ordered to kill (due to the "conditioning" they've been given). They feel neither pride nor remorse over her work, they only want to please their handlers (whose attitudes towards them range from treating them as a beloved little sister to treating them as inhuman tools used only to get a job done). The whole set-up kind of reminds me of Gantz--persons who ought to be dead are given a second chance at life on the condition that they becomes expert killers. The Italian setting of the show is exotic and interesting--sometimes I find myself thinking that the characters really are talking in Italian, then I remember that it's Japanese with a few Italian words sprinkled in. Character designs seemed a touch simplistic to me, but it's not a serious problem. Gunslinger Girl gets pretty violent at times, but it doesn't seem all that dark to me, perhaps because the girls are so oblivious to the concept of right and wrong. The episodes seem to go by so fast! It's as if they were only 15 minutes long, which is a sure sign that I'm engrossed in the story. Perhaps one thing that contributes to this sensation of brief episodes is that several have ended suddenly without as much closure as I'd expected. When the final episode came to an end, I was left feeling that yes, this was a tragic series, but not a depressing one. In fact, I detected an encouraging resiliancy on the part of the girls--the hand they've been dealt in life is very poor, but they fully intend to make the best of it. There are a few strings left hanging--like who was that blonde terrorist woman who appeared several times, but had nothing to do with the conclusion? Still, I think the series ends in such a way that it is moving and complete by itself, yet additional episodes could be added on seamlessly (and one of the commentary extras hinted that a second season is possible). I'm not holding my breath waiting for more episodes, but I don't feel a need to know exactly what will become of the girls either. Such is the pleasingly subtle way Gunslinger Girl ends--it gets it's message across without cramming it down your throat. In short, engaging characters, an intriguing storyline, exotic locales, and a healthy dose of shoot-em-up action makes this my favorite female-assasin anime, and one of the best girls-with-guns shows altogether. I began rewatching it rightaway.

I don't have a favorite line for this show (the characters don't talk all that much and joke even less) but my favorite scene would have to be in episode two when Henrietta thinks a restaraunt waiter might be trying to kill Guise.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:37 am Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes.

That's also a tautology! And a really silly one; is Chobits shoujo just because CLAMP usually writes shoujo? (hint: no, it ran in a seinen magazine). Not to mention that this is an anime which, according to those who read the manga, took quite a few liberties with the source, so surely that filter should play some part in the evaluation.

I don't think you should worry about "being wrong" in oferring a definition of lolicon. The "authoritative" sources that people have been citing here are all openly editable ones, which clearly means that the definition is still in flux. Indeed, "lolicon" is sometimes used for adult men who have a fetish for schoolgirl uniforms instead of schoolgirls themselves!

An attempt at trying to suss out the intended affect on the audience isn't a bad way of trying to define lolicon, actually. But... again, that can be difficult. Maybe Gunslinger Girl skirts the boundaries by being too vague as a result of being underdeveloped. Personally I don't see it crossing the line into sexual fantasy, at least not the first anime adaptation. But since it ends with spoiler[the girls still in their roles as assassins, rather than, say, having the organization get exposed and all of them rescued, to have happy, healthy relationships with their handlers]...well, it's still got a bit of unpleasantness that has nothing to do with sex, doesn't it?

I think I get what your intended criticism is even if I don't necessarily agree with the label. Hopefully others will see that we can end this silly debate...? Please? Please?
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:34 am Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
erinfinnegan wrote:
Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes.

That's also a tautology! And a really silly one; is Chobits shoujo just because CLAMP usually writes shoujo? (hint: no, it ran in a seinen magazine).

While I don't agree that lolicon/ero/etc. mangaka must always write lolicon/ero/etc, I wouldn't say it's rare or impossible for a lolicon/ero/etc. mangaka to be influenced by his/her kinks and fetishes when drawing a manga. As for Gunslinger Girl, I don't know about the anime, but I've seen the manga and it definitely had lolicon vibes. It may not be explicitly lolicon, but it's pretty obvious that for all the drama and whatnot, it also fetishizes the little girls themselves and their relationship with their handlers. I wasn't surprised in the least when I learned that the mangaka had made lolicon doujins.

vashfanatic wrote:
Indeed, "lolicon" is sometimes used for adult men who have a fetish for schoolgirl uniforms instead of schoolgirls themselves!

Which is because they're schoolgirl uniforms... so I think calling them lolicon is pretty accurate. In any case, I consider the Japanese Wikipedia and 2ch pretty definitive sources, mostly because there are so many otaku there. Wiki.jp says: "Lolicon: romantic affection, sexual desire for very young girls." 2ch says: "Someone who is into elementary school age girls." So basically it's an attraction to very young girls, or an individual with such an attraction. I don't think there's a need for a more "complex" definition (in fact, I think that would smack of trying to justify certain works or individual tastes/kinks).

I think the easiest way to gauge what is lolicon and what isn't is to see if it panders to a lolicon audience, and if yes, on what level. I don't think the GSG, Ichigo Mashimaro, etc. mangas are lolicon per se, but they have lolicon appeal. On the other hand, Kodomo no jikan may have Serious Social Commentary (yeah right), but it's pretty blatantly lolicon.
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Craeyst Raygal



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1383
Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT.
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:53 pm Reply with quote
What I find particularly interesting is the comparison in the Gunslinger Girl portion of Shelf Life to one of Kenichi Sonoda's great works: Gunsmith Cats.

You see folks, in the way-back-when, Gunsmith Cats was one of the hottest manga out of the Dark Horse catalog. Fast cars, cute girls, lots of gunfights with astonishingly accurately drawn guns, all taking place against the backdrop (sort of) of Chicago.

The partnership at the core of the franchise, which also spawned a successful OAV, was Rally Vincent and "Minnie" May Hopkins.

Elephant in the room? Minnie May was a 17yr old ex-prostitute who learned the bomb trade from her much older Chinese Mafia boyfriend Ken, and who takes growth-stunting herbal "remedies" so that she can stay attractive to him.

Now, here's the deal. I point this out not as a means of declaring hypocrisy on Erin's part (because it isn't) but instead as a method of pointing out something entirely different: Gunsmith Cats, despite having a character that is EXPLICITLY a lolita character, is NOT a lolicon series.

How can this be? Focus. This show, and even its more graphic manga source material, don't make Minnie May's age to be a focal point of the show. Age IS a focal point of Gunslinger Girl. The fact that these are little girls committing these acts and being involved in these relationships is more critical to the central theme of the show than the acts they commit.

Gunsmith Cats, on the other hand, is entirely event centric. If Rally and Minnie May were suddenly five years older than as they had been originally drafted, the show doesn't change as long as the events surrounding the girls don't change.

Titillating young girls (even occasionally titillating) ARE the focus of Gunslinger Girl. That makes it a lolicon series.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:14 pm Reply with quote
Craeyst Raygal wrote:
Titillating young girls (even occasionally titillating) ARE the focus of Gunslinger Girl. That makes it a lolicon series.

No, they are not. Because they are not "titillating". Since the series has no fanservice and doesn't sexualize the girls at all, there is absolutely nothing about it that could be considered arousing.

Now if the camera had focused in on Rico's butt instead of her head while she's aiming a sniper rifle, I could understand the claim. But the show doesn't attempt even a miniscule amount of titillation.

If a viewer thinks something is arousing, then I would claim that it's all in that viewer's mind and could even be independent of the content of the series (perhaps their mind linking the manga author's background, etc).
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Ranma824



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 456
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Craeyst Raygal wrote:
Titillating young girls (even occasionally titillating) ARE the focus of Gunslinger Girl. That makes it a lolicon series.

And how exactly are they "titillating?

By killing people? Following orders? Trying to find meaning in their new lives? Wanting acceptance from their handler?

The only thing titillating in GG would be the action scenes. (in the sense of people enjoying gunfights)
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:29 pm Reply with quote
omoikane wrote:
Because that's not going to win you any friends unless they're a bunch of prudes. Sad

Or I could go all reality TV and say, "I'm not here to make friends."

Blood- wrote:
Who do I contact at ANN to get a "jaw drop" emoticon added to the list around here?

Yes, I agree!

vashfanatic wrote:
And a really silly one; is Chobits shoujo just because CLAMP usually writes shoujo? (hint: no, it ran in a seinen magazine).

Earlier you dismissed "Seinen" as not being a genre...? Anyway, Banana Fish is technically josei. It's often surprising. Plus, there's that blurry line where half of all Shonen Jump readers are girls, and the magazine panders to them.

Anyway, I'm working on my own "Lolicon or not?" theory, with different questions, like the following. Because as we can see, sometimes it's hard to tell if something is lolicon or not.

1. Who was the intended audience, originally?
2. Is the source material hentai or lolicon?
3. Has the artist done original lolicon manga before?
4. Can I buy a sexy figure of any/all of the protagonist? (Not a homemade one-off figure, but a mass produced one.)
5. Is the age of the protagonists central to the plot?

I'm still working on this list. And I think the English-language internet is still working on the definition.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:
Okay, I seriously want to know who this so-called "expert" is, and what his credentials are.

He's an anonymous source, and his credentials would give him away. Journalist have anonymous sources, right?

Ranma824 wrote:
Quote:
He claims it has everything to do with the reader's feelings towards the girls themselves and not so much with the sexual content.

See, that sounds like an ok definition of moe - but the "reader's feelings" part is just to vague. That could be anything from 'nothing' to 'sexually turned on', no matter what the content is.

I was paraphrasing:
Erin's Anonymous Source wrote:

Is Gunslinger Girl loli? In my opinion Gunslinger Girl itself is more
of a father-con or brother-con and obvious Italy-con property that
was tailored for lolicon sensibilities. The adults in this do not actively
engage the girls sexually and in certain cases do not even treat the
girls in a humane manner that unless sadistic would not constitute
sexual attraction. Instead it is often the girls who are attracted to
their handlers. As they are wiped clean of their memories and their
world becomes however their handlers defines it. And as the only
person that matters even if the girls do not exhibit sexual attraction
to their men, they are looking for recognition by this father/brother
figure.

At the same time like Yotsuba or Strawberry Marshmallow the
intended reader is supposed to be a lolicon. While the lolicon might
not be sexually attracted or physically attracted to the loli the
manga's goal is to exploit a moe inspired reaction from its
magazine's male readership, where the male reader should be
concerned for the safety of these kids because it is clear that their
handlers and the Italian government is using them as tools.

The invented terms "brother-con" and "father-con" are growing on me.

Craeyst Raygal wrote:
Elephant in the room? Minnie May was a 17yr old ex-prostitute who learned the bomb trade from her much older Chinese Mafia boyfriend Ken, and who takes growth-stunting herbal "remedies" so that she can stay attractive to him.

Holy sh*t was that in the anime?! I've never read the manga.

Also your post was super-insightful, thanks!
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leftbehindxp



Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 142
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:39 pm Reply with quote
Erin, when you started writing this column I didn't enjoy reading it at all. I felt bored with it every time. But for the past month or so I've started to really enjoy it. I'm not sure how to say this, but I feel now that your writing is more honest and fun. Not saying that you ever held something back, but I feel that you writing like how you would speak it in real life. Hope that makes sense, but in the end you've gained another loyal reader.

About the column, I'm sad to hear that you feel that way about Gunslinger Girl. This series has to be in my top five somewhere. I felt that they gave enough substance about characters in order for the viewer to understand them throughout the series. There are episodes dedicated to each character that I thought explained characters pretty well. Also, the interactions the girls had with one another gave a hint as to how their personalities are. But besides that, I didn't find this show creepy as you did. Though I agree with you that the relationship between the handlers and the girls is a weird one, especially with Henrietta.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:52 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
The invented terms "brother-con" and "father-con" are growing on me.

I give each three days until the mainstream dilutes these to include a stick figure, the artists who drew the characters, Liberace's fur coat, cross dressing pedophiles, a yard stick, two pinstripes ripped from a 1979 Ford Pinto, and a wad of bubble gum stuck to the bottom of a faded and worn pair of Vans.

In their infinite wisdom, they'll even throw in Kevin Bacon so they can revive the Kevin Bacon game.

At the very least, any article featuring the terms will no doubt spark 5 pages of comments instantly.

Which is always good for an ad-supported model. Wink
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Okay, so now I'm starting to see. Manga that are published in Dengeki Daioh must be lolicon because the only people that read Dengeki Daioh are themselves subject to lolita complex or are pedophiles.

So Crest of the Stars, Toradora, Railgun, Yotsuba& Gunparade March, White Album, Sola, Ichigo Mashimaro Library War, Manabi Straight, Kashimashi, Kamichu!, Futakoi Alternative, Kurogane Communication, and of course, Azumanga Daioh are all lolicon.

Okay, well at least I have some understanding of your thought process.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:24 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:
The invented terms "brother-con" and "father-con" are growing on me.

I've never heard "father-con" before, but brother-con (and sister-con) have been around for a long time.
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Craeyst Raygal



Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 1383
Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT.
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:27 pm Reply with quote
erinfinnegan wrote:


Craeyst Raygal wrote:
Elephant in the room? Minnie May was a 17yr old ex-prostitute who learned the bomb trade from her much older Chinese Mafia boyfriend Ken, and who takes growth-stunting herbal "remedies" so that she can stay attractive to him.

Holy sh*t was that in the anime?! I've never read the manga.

Also your post was super-insightful, thanks!


Firstly, both you're welcome, and thank you. I try to make good use of the few things I say around here these days from time to time.

Secondly, it was manga only. The OAV didn't give much clue to Minnie May's past or age aside from that she was younger than Rally, but yes she was all of that. In fact, May has explicit fellatio scenes in the GSC manga.

No one even in the OAV world of the early 90's thought THAT was going to fly, so it got left on the page, and in fact was cut from the initial Dark Horse manga release.
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Ranma824



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 456
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:35 pm Reply with quote
From the Source:
Quote:
At the same time like Yotsuba or Strawberry Marshmallow the intended reader is supposed to be a lolicon. While the lolicon might not be sexually attracted or physically attracted to the loli the manga's goal is to exploit a moe inspired reaction from its magazine's male readership, where the male reader should be concerned for the safety of these kids because it is clear that their handlers and the Italian government is using them as tools.

It seems that your source is encompassing any possible show with cute girls in it, as a lolicon show - And anybody who enjoys them are "lolicon".

Hm... any Japanese Otaku reading this thread; who could confirm that this is how you guys use the term?

Either way, an English reading audience will always associate lolicon with outwardly explicit sexual content of very young girls.
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mufurc



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:54 pm Reply with quote
Ranma824 wrote:
From the Source:
Quote:
At the same time like Yotsuba or Strawberry Marshmallow the intended reader is supposed to be a lolicon. While the lolicon might not be sexually attracted or physically attracted to the loli the manga's goal is to exploit a moe inspired reaction from its magazine's male readership, where the male reader should be concerned for the safety of these kids because it is clear that their handlers and the Italian government is using them as tools.

It seems that your source is encompassing any possible show with cute girls in it, as a lolicon show - And anybody who enjoys them are "lolicon".


I'm sorry, are we talking about Strawberry Marshmallow? (Even if you somehow manage to find justification for these, the last one is pretty obvious. And yes, these are all official artworks.)

Ranma824 wrote:
Hm... any Japanese Otaku reading this thread; who could confirm that this is how you guys use the term?

I'm not Japanese but I mentioned the Japanese wikipedia's and the 2chan dictionary's definitions above.

Ranma824 wrote:
Either way, an English reading audience will always associate lolicon with outwardly explicit sexual content of very young girls.

Maybe on this forum, but otherwise I haven't seen this tendency. In my experience the English audience associates lolicon with fetishizing/sexualizing young girls. Consider the Strawberry Marshmallow images I linked above.


Last edited by mufurc on Wed May 26, 2010 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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