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Hey, Answerman! All Scanlations, All The Time


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Sven Viking



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1034
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:18 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Sven Viking wrote:
Sounds stupid enough to me. It's not about owing anybody, it's about profit. Why try to destroy a market that you could be converting into sales? It's a missed opportunity.
Who makes a profit from free? I think you need a refresher on what the term "market" means. Rolling Eyes These aggregators only live because they are free to anyone. Making the tealeaves now pay for that is catamount to pulling a plastic bag over their heads and tying it at the neck. In short it's suicide. Rolling Eyes

As others have mentioned, advertising is a profit from free when the alternative is nothing. I'm not suggesting licensing and translating whole new titles just to post them for free online. This is a secondary income -- the only costs involved would be site-related, which pirates pay as well. Some companies are already doing it.

Of course, what was being discussed was a "Crunchyroll-style subscription service for digital manga". Obviously the conversion rates from 'free' to 'cheap' would not be high, but they would be higher than nothing. Any demand provides a potential opportunity for profit.

Basically the same thing happened with music.
1. Huge demand for digital music
2. Media companies attempt to destroy said demand
3. Total and utter failure.
4. People argue on forums that "Making the tealeaves now pay for that is catamount to pulling a plastic bag over their heads and tying it at the neck. In short it's suicide."
5. iTunes
6. Profit!
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:16 pm Reply with quote
Sven Viking wrote:
As others have mentioned, advertising is a profit from free when the alternative is nothing. I'm not suggesting licensing and translating whole new titles just to post them for free online. This is a secondary income -- the only costs involved would be site-related, which pirates pay as well. Some companies are already doing it.

Of course, what was being discussed was a "Crunchyroll-style subscription service for digital manga". Obviously the conversion rates from 'free' to 'cheap' would not be high, but they would be higher than nothing. Any demand provides a potential opportunity for profit.


And if the chapter has its royalties advance and translation costs covered by a subscription service, than posting previous chapters for ad-supported free viewing acts as a form of advertising for the subscription that generates a stream of revenue rather than costing money.

And of course, a legit site can get substantially stronger advertising revenues than a bootleg site. Given the low bandwidth costs of manga viewing, an even larger percentage of advertising revenues could be fed back for ad-supported manga viewing than for ad-supported anime streams.
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Psycho_Despair



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 376
Location: East of Eden
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:07 pm Reply with quote
Ahh, I remember when I was watching Cyborg 009, good memories. At first I didn't like the designs, but then I got used to them. So how did the show end?
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silver_deeds



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 61
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:19 am Reply with quote
I just have to say how happy I am seeing as many posts as there are about Cyborg 009 on this thread! I just figured I missed seeing the end, but I didn't know they never aired it. It's always bugged me that I could never find the whole series, even on fansubs. If there's any old school series I'd like to see revived it would be this one.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:35 am Reply with quote
I find some of Answerman's answers to be extremely disturbing and...defeatist. I'm trying to figure out how one goes from embracing new ways to make money, reduce piracy, and perhaps make it the future of the manga and anime industry as a whole in one area, and then adopt a defeatist attitude to the whole situation in other areas. If the anime and manga industry goes belly up, guess who's out of a job?

Yes, the copyright holders don't owe the fans anything and can yank stuff from circulation, but is it good business sense to alienate a potential paying customer base by doing such knee jerk reactions?

"Oh, just buy the stuff directly from Japan!!" Okay, but you have a few problems:

* Irregardless if you buy new or used, your gonna get raped in the wallet. If the books price doesn't kill you, the shipping will.
* Theoretically speaking, what your buying is actually "Used." So in sense, your not paying the copyright holders directly, your lining the pockets of some scalper or other third party. It's like saying that Lady Gaga or James Cameron ain't gonna profit from the sale of their CD's or DVD's if I get them from the Used CD Shop or Pawn Store. I'm buying it used, so i'm not giving my hard earned money to them (Well, James Cameron especially. He has too much money already that blue furry loving....).

"Buy the US Releases!!" Okay...

* Most companies operate where the title releases are around a year/2 years behind the current schedule in Japan. Fanscans get translations out in mere HOURS upon release and are "up to date."
* Brick & Mortar copies are all worn out by Manga cows. Amazon is no better as I have to WAIT for the damn manga to be shipped.
* Ooops, the company just went outta business/lost the license/angered the manga-ka or company/OOP copies priced into the rare book category/caused WWIII.
* See "Used Book" comments above.

Look, i'm willing to meet the Japanese halfway. I'll pay for the content, but I want THEM to release the stuff stateside, on a schedule that doesn't make me seem like i'm still stuck in 2009 Japanese release time wise, in formats that I WANT. If I want printed books, I get it quickly. if I want digital stuff for my E-reader, I get it without DRM bullcrap or strings.

Unfortunately, seeing as how the Japanese work, ain't never gonna happen.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:43 am Reply with quote
I've been a fan of Cyborg 009. I was not aware the last 4 episodes were plain never aired. I just thought that had lost the show pursuing it all around the Cartoon Network schedules. I had gone all the way up to the story about Mount Olympus (I think...it's been so long), and I was pretty annoyed that the series never got any closure. Black Ghost is one of those villains who's so smart, so dedicated, and so very outright effective, not to mention that his warfare is largely psychological, that I wanted to see him beaten to a pulp and put in his place. It's one thing to design your antagonist as scum. It's another to design him as scum who's so good at what he does that he's pushing the heroes to their very limits, and when they break those limits and go even further, he does too.

I decided to pick up the manga, but Tokyopop out-of-printed them when I had just obtained Volume 2. Apparently, Tokyopop had gone up to at least Volume 12, as that was what the official site had said. So right now, I just have two volumes of that yellow cover with black-and-white excerpts directly from the manga.

I don't think it will catch on anytime soon though. There was a Hollywood adaptation attempt at the series, or so I heard. It's stuck in development hell, but if there's anything that can push out Cyborg 009 stuff, it's this.
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mad mac



Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:59 am Reply with quote
In regards to the "translation gap" between Japanese and U.S. manga releases, the way I see it is this:

Can people wait? Most certainly. Manga deprivation has not been scientifically proven to kill anyone so far that I'm aware of, and many people do just that out of either ethics, laziness, or just plain lack of awareness.

Should people wait? This is slightly more of a gray area, but if the alternative is directly supporting piracy and reducing the market value of manga worldwide, more people probably should wait, sure.

Will people wait? Realistically speaking, and assuming they have the means to access newer material without too much hassle, no, most people won't wait. It only takes that one title that a person finds out has two years of material only released in Japan that they can access right this second on the internet and most people will give in to temptation eventually. It only takes a moment to look after all, and it takes years to wait.

What makes this worse is this becomes a self reinforcing habit. Reading ahead online makes the English release less exciting, (Collectors and serious fans will still buy them, I certainly do, but I'm sure many will shrug them off as "too old" compared to what they're reading now.) Once you're up to date on all your favorite series, it's that much harder to go back to waiting for the official release, especially when you've basically already spoiled yourself on the next two years worth of material.

Put simply, it's far too late to shove that particular genie back in the bottle at this stage. The scans are too pervasive and followed by too many people.

You can replace them with legal material of course, and there are obviously many efforts underway to do just that, and I truly hope they succeed. I don't think the industry will be able to salvage itself otherwise.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:52 pm Reply with quote
mad mac wrote:
Will people wait? Realistically speaking, and assuming they have the means to access newer material without too much hassle, no, most people won't wait. It only takes that one title that a person finds out has two years of material only released in Japan that they can access right this second on the internet and most people will give in to temptation eventually. It only takes a moment to look after all, and it takes years to wait.


But note that the "google it, reading in under a minute" is not available because the publishers have fought the manga viewing sites and the manga viewing sites won ... its available because the publishers have never seriously fought the manga viewing sites. Since in most of the main markets, copyright infringement is a civil case, if the infringement is not pursued by the rights holder, there is no penalty for infringement.

Quote:
What makes this worse is this becomes a self reinforcing habit. Reading ahead online makes the English release less exciting,


And not only that, but an online community forms around reading the material as soon after Japanese publication as the scanlation can be done, so rationalizations for the activity are generated and repeated.

Quote:
Once you're up to date on all your favorite series, it's that much harder to go back to waiting for the official release, especially when you've basically already spoiled yourself on the next two years worth of material.


Especially if official readily available online releases are only sparsely available. Even if the series became slightly more difficult to hunt down and read, that is not going to make a large number wait unless there is some other series to read - and its the bootleg sites that have five years or more worth of bootleg uploads.

Quote:
Put simply, it's far too late to shove that particular genie back in the bottle at this stage. The scans are too pervasive and followed by too many people.


The conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises, though. If the scans become less pervasive, they will be followed by fewer people. If the legit content becomes more accessible, they will be followed by more, aided of course by the fact that they can advertise on and be linked to from legit sites.

And of course, the habits of a cohort do not pass by magic to the next cohort - they were acquired in a particular online terrain, and changing the shape of the online terrain will change the habits acquired by the next cohort.

It is obvious and ought to go without saying - though given the number of people who present it as an "either/or" choice, it must be said - that enforcement of copyright and forcing the bootleggers to go back to skulking in shadows is only one part of the online strategy. A second complementary part is to make a substantial amount of content available on a self-funding basis through advertising with no cost to the viewer, and the third complementary part is to find ways to commercialize various premium features.

There's no point in doing an enforcement sweep if its not going to be followed up by establishing an online market space. That's what makes it likely that a decision to get serious about moving into online distribution was an essential part of the decision to proceed with the enforcement sweep.
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mad mac



Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 186
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:26 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
It is obvious and ought to go without saying - though given the number of people who present it as an "either/or" choice, it must be said - that enforcement of copyright and forcing the bootleggers to go back to skulking in shadows is only one part of the online strategy. A second complementary part is to make a substantial amount of content available on a self-funding basis through advertising with no cost to the viewer, and the third complementary part is to find ways to commercialize various premium features.

There's no point in doing an enforcement sweep if its not going to be followed up by establishing an online market space. That's what makes it likely that a decision to get serious about moving into online distribution was an essential part of the decision to proceed with the enforcement sweep.


Oh sure. I never said I had any problem with enforcement, but it's going to need to go hand in hand with the legal online effort to have a real impact in the long run. So really, we're just agreeing with each other. Cool
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:36 pm Reply with quote
mad mac wrote:

Can people wait?.........

Should people wait?.........

Will people wait?.........


At this point, I really doubt the Japanese Copyright Holders have any standing to make people other than the Japanese wait when scanlators can sometimes shoot out even the most crappiest raw translations within hours of the first release. It's almost akin to what happened to Digital Music.

People hated buying CD's to get 2 songs they liked and 10 other songs that were crap. Along comes Napster and now, people can cherrypick songs they want. The RIAA and other artists sees this, and tries it's darndest to shut down sites and then sue people for millions over sharing content. Heck, Lars Ulrich decides to "punish" possible fans (hundreds of thousands) by getting them banned from Napster as well. All hell breaks loose, Lars is shunned as a money grubbing whore slut, the RIAA then does a few stupid things as well that hurts their image.

Eventually, some artists embrace the Internet as a new medium and then iTunes came along, with a model where people were willing to pay for songs instead of pirating it!! Even thought there is some hiccups (WMG throwing DMCA's around Youtube making videos silent, etc.), at least there is a model that offers people ways to pay for songs legitimately.

I don't see why the Japanese does something similar digital wise, or even physical wise. The fanscans prove it's possible; the Japanese only have to refine it.

Quote:
I don't think the industry will be able to salvage itself otherwise.


If the Japanese can get rid of it's Xenophobic attitude, then yes, they can succeed. But I won't hold my breath over it.

At least Viz is doing "catchup" with One Piece and did it with Naruto, which was a step in the right direction. But it should be done with ALL manga irregardless.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:00 pm Reply with quote
Well first coming from someone who likes listening to albums, I normally don't buy an album just for1 or 2 songs, much like how anime and manga fans normally don't buy 1 or 2 chapters or episodes (or series for that matter) So I don't think the comparison is 100% there although there are certain things you can take from it, like Metallica hasn't really "suffered" all that much for what Lars did, and that there should be some sort of profit making internet model that benefits the artists and the industry in a best case scenario.

With that said however they can't let the aggregation sites and to a lesser extent scanlators stand really as you can't compete with someone who isn't playing buy the rules or respecting the rights of others. Now if an aspiring artist any where in the world with an internet connection want to release their work by themselves, they can do so, if they want to get with a big publisher (or a small to middling publisher) they can do that as well, the power of being free means being able to make your own choice.

As to the "every release should be accelerated" that simply is not feasible at this time, even with an internet distribution looming, at least in physical printing.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:39 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
People hated buying CD's to get 2 songs they liked and 10 other songs that were crap. Along comes Napster and now, people can cherrypick songs they want. The RIAA and other artists sees this, and tries it's darndest to shut down sites and then sue people for millions over sharing content. Heck, Lars Ulrich decides to "punish" possible fans (hundreds of thousands) by getting them banned from Napster as well. All hell breaks loose, Lars is shunned as a money grubbing whore slut, the RIAA then does a few stupid things as well that hurts their image.


As someone who never used Napster--indeed has never downloaded a song in her life, I actually was on Metallica's side the little bit I paid attention to the whole thing. I was already a Metallica fan when Cliff Burton died.
I still buy my music on cd because I grew up on albums. We had one of those little take-with-you turntables with built-in speakers for children I listened to Disney & the like on. I never was necessarily a Top Ten listener. I often prefer the obscure cut buried deep on the album.
I think "cherry-picking" is a sad result of the ability to download only the hits. I even hold the snobby attitude listening to the whole album for those unheard songs makes those of us that do this superior because we're willing to dig a little deeper to find the gold.


Sunday Silence wrote:
I don't see why the Japanese does something similar digital wise, or even physical wise. The fanscans prove it's possible; the Japanese only have to refine it.


I have Shonen Onmyoji. The "English" dub is unlistenable for me becuase it is so painfully awkward. Thank god I buy my anime for the Japanese with subtitles.
I don't trust the sort of solutions you seem to be suggesting. I'd rather see someone who cares about the work translate Kuroshitsuji than read the horrid scans. And I don't trust Japan not to go with the cheapest translation. English isn't English. Words have multiple meanings. I've seen bootlegs of One Piece with "Sunkist" instead of Sanji. I've puzzled over dying characters being told to "Cheer up!" as if the gaping wound will seal with a smile from the victim.

Sunday Silence wrote:
At least Viz is doing "catchup" with One Piece and did it with Naruto, which was a step in the right direction. But it should be done with ALL manga irregardless.


I'm sorry, but I am so backed up as it is, I really don't care about what happened last week in the Japanese chapter of Bleach. In my bag at this moment is I've Moved Next Door to You, NG Life 5, Soul Eater 3, Peacemaker Kurogane 4, Y Square, Waq Waq 1, Gantz 2&3, INVU 5, Demon Flowers 2, & Blood Sucker 2. In the mail is Gestalt 7. I know Fairy Tail is due for another release as well as a couple yaoi titles by month's end, the Darker than Black collection...and next month there's another round.
What happened last week in whatever Japanese magazine is too far off my radar.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:25 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
At this point, I really doubt the Japanese Copyright Holders have any standing to make people other than the Japanese wait when scanlators can sometimes shoot out even the most crappiest raw translations within hours of the first release. It's almost akin to what happened to Digital Music.


Many an online discussion starts from arguing what is or is not impossible. A more serious approach to online strategy would begin from the point of what is feasible.

For example, the Japanese copyright holders and US license holders can make it impossible for the scanlation to go directly up to being hosted internally on a manga viewing site that shows up on the first page of a google for "manga online" and then stays up.

If a manga viewing site attempts to run on the basis of linking to external content, the Japanese copyright holders and US license holders can ensure that a majority of the time of the volunteers working to line the pockets of the site owners or IP hosts (aka "suckers") is spent on re-uploading existing entries in the site catalog rather than on uploading new entries ... with every click into a chapter being a roll of the dice whether its manga on display or a takedown notice.

"What viewers want" is a choice among every title ever published, with a translation that lines up with their preferences, easily read, well cross-indexed, available via any browser and at no cost.

And the only reason the predatory manga viewer sites get as close to that as they do is that they have not faced any determined enforcement effort. In the face of determined enforcement, they will have to start picking and choosing between visible search profile, ease of use at the site, and number of titles offered.

When all the most easily found bootleg viewing sites have all the biggest selling titles available within a few days after Japanese publication, a competing legit site would have to be close to perfect at the outset, and that is just not going to happen - no matter how sound the model, it will always take time to grow into a new market.

If we look at online bootleg distribution in areas that have faced determined copyright enforcement, we see, on the one hand, the piracy has not "stamped out", but on the other hand, the easiest to find and easiest to access content is the legit content.

As long as that is the case, even the stereotypical "poor college student" who gets everything by bootleg ... when they get a job and have more disposable income, and less free time, many will just pay for the content because its easier, whether iTunes or cable or Netflix or some more specialized subscription.

And that gets right to the "waiting" ... if there is readily available legit content, and enough content of sufficient interest to occupy the time that the more valuable segment of the market audience has available to devote to reading the content, then waiting is much less pressing as an issue.
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:

At least Viz is doing "catchup" with One Piece and did it with Naruto, which was a step in the right direction. But it should be done with ALL manga irregardless.

That's practically impossible. Some series don't sell as well as Naruto, which could have several volumes released in one month. But what happens when a series with low sales that is 15 volumes long gets 7 shoved out the door in 2 months? Company enters red, can't make up what they lost, company fails if they do this with every series.

The reason for waits is to make up for the costs. A series might take three months to make a profit per volume. So what do they do? Release a volume every 3 months. They can't just fly through them, partly because it can produce a lower quality product, but mostly because they simply cannot afford to. You make it sound like companies have the capabilities to do this, but just wont. That's incorrect. Simply put, there's a reason why Naruto and One Piece get sped up schedules and why Bleach is predicted to be the next.


Last edited by RestLessone on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:45 pm Reply with quote
RestlessOne wrote:
The reason for waits is to make up for the costs. A series might take three months to make a profit per volume. So what do they do? Release a volume every 3 months. They can't just fly through them, partly because it can produce a lower quality product, but mostly because they simply cannot afford to. You make it sound like companies have the capabilities to do this, but just wont. That's incorrect. Simply put, there's a reason why Naruto and One Piece get sped up schedules and why Bleach is predicted be the next.


Quite. This also suggests that the rather than working "from the top, down", the legit online distribution that is likely to be emerging over the next twelve months will be "both ends toward the middle".

The big "hit" titles will be pushed as close as they can to "simulpub", and it would not be surprising to see day-of-US-publication online manga viewing to subscribers at Crunchyroll with add-supported access a week later.

At the same time, a la DMP, the likeliest way to get a large number of legit online manga available quickly is not to turn to the middle tier of manga that are not big hits but which can support a US print publishing run ... it is rather to crowdsource the more marginal manga which cannot sustain a print publishing run, but which can work with the much lower overheads of a crowdsourced online translation.
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