Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! DMCA MSRP WTF
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
agila61, I said that there has never been a case where people were sued for downloading. They only sue to those who have "made available". Big difference.
Please indicate anywhere in this thread I've made such a claim. What I said is it is illegal. Here, from the copyright website itself:
Now, you may be thinking "So why don't these copyright owners go after downloaders then?" And that is where I said the damage of doing so will end battles of piracy because streaming is no different than downloading because it is copying said works. It doesn't have to be proven in courts, agila61. Copyright law itself clearly defines "transfer". Now, couple this with the recent Viacom lawsuit where they inadvertently included their own copyright works in the lawsuit! Do you truly feel people should be freakin' punished for not having a damn clue what is and isn't works uploaded by the copyright owners? If you do, that's a problem.
Kill? Why do you suppose this is, young lady?
We are not in Japan. The moment the content hits our shores, the rules change. As far as Japan is concerned, if they're doing so well, they really don't need us, now do they?
This Answerman column is derived from the publisher coalition going after illicit websites. If it's not blown to hell, then tell me again why they even care about these sites? The working model is blown to hell when outside forces make it impossible for the model support itself regardless of those forces.
Some people still like records. Some people still like horses. Some people still like 8 track tapes. Some people like VHS cassettes. When are you going to understand it's the many, not the few, these industries need to focus on?
I'm demonizing the system, not the people working in the system (well, a few, but we'll leave them out). My apologies for misconstruing this. Publishers once had a role to edit, proof, and publish works. Their role has changed. Instead of a royalty system, they must now be works for hire. Their days as publishers are now limited. If they don't adapt...
...they'll lose these artists because many are beginning to wise up they can do it themselves and retain more of the revenues...
...will find these people will become better business people thanks to the internet, thus will no longer require their services...
...and will lose people with this exact mindset as they watch others do better on their own...
... and finally proving this statement incorrect, mostly. I'm sure there will be one or two around, just as there are those still making vinyl records (died out thanks to the cassette), cassette tapes (died out because of the CD), making carriages for horses (died out from the Model T), engineering trains (died out from the airliner), and a whole boatload of other industries which also failed to adapt. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
INTENTIONAL |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sunday Silence
 Posts: 2047 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't see the Porn Industry complaining. Or hurting. They have sustainable models that could suit to the needs of other companies and create revenue streams, and tactics that don't alienate their customers. Hell, Hollywood actually looks to them in some cases when it comes to adapting technologies and formats. And Pirated stuff? Either send a quiet DMCA notice out, or just let that stuff propagate online. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
You do realize that what you wrote is still available for double checking what you said and what you say now that you said? You said:
... but cannot provide the evidence that you can provide that Fan F is breaking the law in the US regardless of how they obtain the illegal content is lawsuits aimed at torrent downloading.
Ah, so based on your expertise you claim it is an open and shut case. Excuse me if I prefer to rely on the opinion of a law professor in intellectual property, and conclude that you are just making shit up and playing a lawyer on the internet. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
In no way did the cassette tape kill off vinyl. The two co-existed quite happily together but vinyl releases always sold far more than cassette releases. And vinyl has outlived the cassette. It may be a niche format these days but more vinyl gets pressed per year now than was being pressed a decade ago - you can't seriously make the same claim for cassettes (particularly pre-recorded cassettes).
Engineering trains died out? Because we live in a world without trains? What are you talking about? 30 seconds on Google tells me that global train passenger-km numbers are about 1,900 billion. Global airline passenger-km are only about 16 billion.
On the contrary. The business pages have been full of tales of piracy-related porn industry woes for years now. Both DVD and on-line revenues have plummeted. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
edzieba
Posts: 704 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Point 1: Downloading files is copyright infringement (at least in the US). The US government's copyright website explicitly states this.
Point 2: Streaming is exactly the same process as downloading. The only difference is once the data arrives, it is concatenated into a file with the partial file being decoded straight away, rather than just concatenated into a file. That's all. Thus, by the letter of copyright law, watching a stream is no less infringing as downloading a file, because you ARE downloading a file. Whether companies deign this to be worth ENFORCING or not, is another matter entirely. By the letter of copyright law (Berne Convention in this case, derivative works), simply translating something and posting that translated text is illegal. But it's almost unheard of for a company to demand a simple text translation be taken down. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
To quote from your source:
IOW, it is addressing peer to peer networks. To quote from the Congressional testimony linked to from that link: Regarding distribution on peer to peer networks:
Note what is clear and unambiguous infringement: using a peer to peer network to copy or distribute copyrighted works without permission. The US Copyright Office (in 2003) also seems to have been reading some of the recent comments at ANN:
Their response to that line of argument is:
Whether or not the retention of a copy makes it different in law is not settled, and no number of internet interpretations count for a hill of beans until a judge has ruled and established a precedent. From MPAA: Illegal Movie Streaming is Still Theft:
So the MPAA flack says its shoplifting, a copyright attorney says its not necessarily so. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Well, seeing PetrifiedJello is now taking the infamously silly one-liner approach to answering things I guess I'll just have to stop reading his posts now. Especially if he completely ignores the other half of my post to him in regards to comic artist already doing what he suggested, and failing horribly.
Still waiting for some examples of all these comic artist he's claiming are making plenty of money to live off of with just them and the internet. Being one who sells books and having seen sales go up over the last couple months out of this recession I just have to laugh. Books are a format that has worked for almost a thousand years because it's a format that works, and is one that doesn't require any sort of digital gadget, so it will continue to have benefits in comparison to a digital format. You'll be hard pressed to convince any book seller, librarian, or teacher (the later two who can more than likely easily keep the publishing industry afloat if regular people suddenly stopped buying books) that books are dying. This is just another hypothetical argument no one can win, so drop it. You're just putting one hypothetical theory on top of another with your argument which is making it more akin to an internet conspiracy than an argument. Your many, not the few here are the people still reading actual books here. They still outnumber digital book readers by quite a large margin, and they didn't just stop buying regular books when they bought a kindle. Right now digital books are just a gimmick. Serious book readers may get into digital books more, but you'll never stop them from buying physical books as well because there is an appeal there that digital books can't get. You (petrifiedjello) also completely ignored the role of publishers as publicist as well. But I'm assuming you skipped over that because that's something people would be hard to replace if they got rid of publishers, so it's something that contradicts your argument. Please, get back on topic to how all these comic book artist you know are making money. Again, since I and people I know are part of the industry, I'd like to know who's making enough money to live off of your internet model so I can understand how they're doing it for myself and others. If you're successful here you'll have thousands upon thousands of comic book artist giving thanks to you and your miraculous answer to something they've been trying to figure out for years, so please, show us the way here. We'd like to get rid of our day jobs and stop eating ramen. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
enurtsol
 Posts: 14758 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
That is not true. MSNBC not too long ago aired a 1-hr "documentary of the sagging fortunes of the once recession proof porn industry." Um...... not that I was watching, y'know...... 
Some excerpts: The Web site claims adult DVD sales are down 22 percent in a year, numbers which are sure to deflate expectations at this weekend's AVN Adult Entertainment Expo in Las Vegas. Porn may not be as recession-proof as originally thought. Not only are people spending less, but there's a lot of free competition available. “There’s enough free pr0n on the Internet that, if you don’t care about quality, you can get what you want,” Fishbein said. What Francis is more upset about than the current economy is the frequent pirating that occurs with his product. “We’re facing what the music business faced a few years ago,” he said. “These sites are stealing our content. We want copyright laws enforced.” |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
If you want to sit here and berate this, go ahead. I've proven my argument. Disagree with it all you want. My advice: read the law and judge for yourself what it says.
Which you still don't understand:
You totally misconstrued what that very law professor was telling you regarding the 24 hours.
He didn't say outright that it isn't so. Figure out why, agila61.
For clarification: when a marketed product exceeds another, the former is killed off.
I've read it, but dismissed it. The term "failure" is subjective. I also dismissed it because I bear in mind you contributed to this entire situation, and you probably didn't even realize it. I'm not angry with you, but instead, trying to help you realize the overall situation. You're a very stubborn girl, but I'm not going to give up. First, allow me to explain how all scanlators contributed to this mess:
That's from the latest news regarding that 14 year old boy who was arrested for uploading manga scans to YouTube. You used to scanlate. Unfortunately, you felt the actions were under the "no harm, no foul" rule because the works weren't distributed here and your group wasn't "profiting". Sadly, when you combine this with the others who did the same, what you all did was perpetuate the growth of online scans. While these scanlator groups may not have profited financially, there's no denying the growth base of this action took away from those who did profit. The works you and others did were copied everywhere, and I'll even bet some of them reside on these big manga sites you now want removed. That's a bit of an audacious attitude to have. It's the fault of scanlators, who are also pirates, that is hurting the industry. When scanlators of undistributed works fail to realize this (I especially love the comments where people hoped the coalition won't go after the small scanlators), that's a problem. That's a very, very large problem. Because what these groups don't get is this: Even if these manga sites didn't have a single distributed work available, the sheer numbers of undistributed works is enough to draw in hundreds of thousands of visitors. It is incredibly naive to think if people have access to undistributed manga resources that they're going to continue buying licensed material. The reason is because you and other scanlators profited by creating a very large market for this unlicensed material. What these groups didn't earn in cash, they made up for with eyeballs. That's why I said people who sell these sites aren't actually selling the sites, but the customer base of those sites. See how all this relates? Now, you post very defensively about fighting for "artists rights" and they're allowed to control their works how they see fit. You, and all those other scanlators, showed without doubt how that control is an illusion. Now that we've established this online competition, you and others also fail to grasp the external factors which are also causing problems for the publishing industry. "The demise is all the pirates fault.", they claim, "Let's burn them to hell!" But let's review the other factors: -Between 2001 and 2008, nearly 50% of the paper mills in the US have closed. Decline in demand for paper. For the remaining, their demand increases because of the closed shops. They now have extra business costs to cover, so up goes their cost of paper. Translation: manga gets increased by $1. Result: people can't/won't pay for the $1. -It seems like every day, we're reading news of yet another bookstore closing. As these front ends to consumers close, the drop in sales follows. Publishers can't continue ordering the same supply, so they reduce it. Which leads us right back to the paper mill. -Schools and universities are ditching textbooks for online. Don't publishers rely on a good chunk of revenues in this area? This doesn't bode well at all. -The price of gas goes up. Books don't get to their destination for free. -The internet. Ah yes, this system which gives millions access to all the wonders humans can create. Some download what they shouldn't. Most abide by the rules. The internet has provided us humans with another form of entertainment, so who needs books? The internet is free and has so much more to offer. Now that you understand just a few additional issues at hand, this is why I don't feel those examples you quoted "failed". They simply haven't established their content enough to turn that "failure" into a success. Remember, I didn't say it was easy. Your quote of "$40 isn't enough" only included one model (ad support). Sure, $40 isn't much, but combine it with other avenues, and $40 can turn into $400. Doing this requires major work, getting works out there, and building the fanbase. For without the fanbase, there is nothing one can capitalize on turning into customers.
No, I didn't. The "work for hire" covers this element of the publishing industry, littlegreenwolf.
Once again, I'm going to reiterate this so you don't skip over it: The publishing system is not the same thing as thing as those who work for the system. Do you honestly take me as being so stupid that if publishers stopped producing books they still wouldn't offer anything? The problem you're not understanding, littlegreenwolf, is these publishers are making it harder on themselves to maintain their existence because of the system. This system, for the record, has put thousands in the unemployment line for trying to sell the products of that system. There's nothing else I can say regarding this matter if you're unwilling to see the implications of publishers trying to maintain control in a digital world. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Your clarification is as off-mark as your examples. Sales of pre-recorded cassettes never came anywhere close to exceeding those of vinyl records (just as, worldwide, the number of people travelling by plane has never come close to the number of people travelling by train). And, no, one product's sales exceeding those of another doesn't mean that the less successful product has been "killed off" if it's still profitable and widely available. That's just silly. You're probably wondering why I'm harping on about this, since it must seem like a minor detail to you but I think it illuminates the problem I have with a lot of your arguments: you're a True Believer and, as such, you can only see one course and one outcome. But history (and evolution) teach us that, actually, it is quite possible for two or more ways of doing things to prosper, whether in parallel, in symbiotic relationships or in mutual isolation: ideologies, technologies, business models and products are no exception. I have more fundamental concerns regarding the breadth and depth of what can be made available with a free-to-own content model - concerns validated by the ongoing demise of serious news journalism - but I've already broken my promise to myself that I wouldn't get embroiled in this many-headed, never-ending dispute so I'll leave that for another time. Or, you know, feel free to PM me if you want to be subjected to a long-winded, pedantic argument. 
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
edzieba
Posts: 704 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
You have not presented any evidence on the point. When pressed to present evidence on the point, you present evidence on another point and then you own, non-professional opinion that the precedent applies. As long as nobody is misled into thinking that you have evidence backing up that claim, then fine. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Because its not settled law, so saying either that it is so or saying that it isn't so would both be misleading. I realize that this point may be hard for people who labor under confirmation bias to grasp, but "not necessarily so" is a perfectly normal legal category for specific issues that have never been tested in court, where opposing attorneys will appeal to different precedents and a judge will decide which precedents apply. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
All of the evidence that PJ has posted of downloading being illegal are evidence about peer to peer networks, and all of the sources agree that uploading infringing material - which is part of the process of downloading material in a functioning peer to peer network - is illegal. From all accounts from legal professionals, that's settled law. Whether the process of a direct streaming download for transitory use is, under law, both sides making a copy, or the server side making the copy, is not settled law. Its something that a judge would have to decide. With system caching recognized in the DMCA legislation as a distinct category of activity from file storage, its not automatic that a judge would side with you and PJ that viewing a video stream is identical under law to downloading and storing a file. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group