Forum - View topicJason Thompson's House of 1000 Manga - Justice & Star Trekker
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ptolemy18
Manga Reviewer/Creator/Taster
Posts: 357 Location: San Francisco |
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We're obviously not going to agree on this... 
What I don't like about superhero comics from the Big Two is that they can never have real endings, and they are not the work of a single creator (or a single team of creators). Lots of manga may go on forever and/or have crappy endings, but you can still say "Masashi Kishimoto is the creator/writer/artist of Naruto, and eventually, he will end the story." Dragon Ball Z was ridiculous, but it was all drawn by Akira Toriyama and his buds, and eventually, it ended. You can't say that about non-creator-owned American superhero comics. Not to say that they don't have AWESOME talent working on them ('cause they pay great)... Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis, Peter Milligan... there are some individual story arcs and graphic novels and segments based on DC and Marvel characters that are *amazing*. In fact, you could say that superhero comics can experiment with interesting writing *more* than manga because they know that if one writer tries something too weird and stupid, they can always wave their hand and retcon it and bring back the character under another creative team. But their coolness is sort of watered down by the fact that, a few years later, some new creative team is going to come on the book and undo everything (or almost everything) that the previous writer did. I've heard some superhero fans say that this is good, because it keeps refreshing the pool of ideas, so that the books/characters never get old, and keep growing anew for each generation of readers. Arguably, this *is* true. But I'd still rather read comics where there was one hand at the wheel, where the focus is on the creator, not whatever character they happen to be working on at the moment. I like stories with endings. Just my two cents....! |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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If you can point out definitive examples of Superman with serious character development before the 90s, I'll conceed, but like ptolemy18 said, manga's different because they usually have definite endings. If you give a superhero some character development, that can screw up the formula they have where you can just jump into any issue of Superman and not have to worry about the backstory. Superman is a good guy, and he has the personality of a log. That's about all you need to know about the big guy in blue when you pick up one of his comics. |
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rockman nes
 Posts: 271 |
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X-Men: The End And more. Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Are you freaking serious? Superman: Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster Batman: Bob Kane and Bill Finger X-Men: Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (as are a majority of Marvel characters) Spawn: Todd McFarlane Lobo: Roger Slifer and Keith Giffen As far as I'm concerned Superhero comics and Shounen manga are merely two sides of the same coin (I know I just drove some weaboos crazy with what I just said, but it's kind of true) |
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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They end temporarily and the endings aren't always canon. For the big American superheroes, endings are just a little side project. They don't really count and new creators can always start the series over if the publisher wants them to.
They may have designed the characters, but other creators had a hand in their develoment as well. The characters, including the costumes, are redesigned every now and then. A new set of creators might decide to do a darker version and another set may prefer to retcon the whole lot and go retro. Some of the later creators were a bigger influence on the character(s)/series than the original. This doesn't happen with manga. It happens with anime based on manga (Lupin would be a good example), but mangaka creators don't feel the need to remake their own series. They probably wouldn't have the time for it anyway. CLAMP loves multi-universe crossovers and Tezuka saw his characters like actors, but it's always clear that the re-used characters aren't the same and aren't meant to be the same as the ones we saw in an earlier work. Superman will always be Superman. |
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nqm
Posts: 14 |
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While it's true in Japan the practice of having a different creative team switch and put a new take on an established character is quite rare unlike American comics. I attribute that to American greed from Marvel/Timely and DC where they unless they pulled a Bob Kane creators pretty much got screwed over with the publishing rights and royalties. But I also like sometimes a fresh pair of eyes to update an existing character and come with a concept that hasn't been explored of course it can be disastrous like J Micheal Straczynski's run on Spiderman with Brand New Day. But also can provide an entertaining and rewarding read.
But even though many manga characters while not exactly in the superhero mold they pretty much have stereotypical archetypes too. I mean read any shounen or shoujo manga and the same themes (stereotypes) pop up over and over again. They are just as contrived as a by the numbers superhero book. It all depends on personal taste I suppose but I really hate the "American comics are not as complex as Japanese comics" argument. Clearly they are not reading the right titles. I ask you to see a manga-ka create something like Pax Romana by Johnathan Hickman. If you prefer manga good for you but don't try and paint American/Western comics with broad brush strokes. DC/Vertigo just came out with a comic based on Neil Young's concept album Greendale. How many manga-ka would try that? I like both styles of the medium and I think manga and western comics have much to offer fans of sequential art. I just think that both sides need to keep an open mind about such things. There are things in manga you wouldn't get in Western comic books. One thing I prefer about American comics is that with the exception of CLAMP there are no creative teams really. A really great manga artist is also the writer and sometimes they are pretty lousy at the writing or the writing is great but the art is suspect. There's nothing better when a writer and artist have that symbiotic cohesiveness in a comic because both are specialized at what they do and they feed off one another creatively. However in Japan for the most part dead means dead unlike especially in the big 2. I am so sick of heroes being killed off only to boost sales and be brought back one year later as an almost gimmick. Like I think Captain America and Batman with Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne gone have gotten better since their demise. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I agree with you, and I hate the "superhero fan" argument you begin this paragraph with. Incidentally, this is also why I HATE fanfiction. If you have an amazingly awesome idea that must be "oh so original, no one's tried it before", why not USE YOUR OWN CHARACTERS. I think certain American comics like Superman and Batman have gotten so scattered now, that "ending" them is pointless but American comics (and some shounen titles eventually get the same way (looking at you Naruto and Bleach (don't read One Piece))) are often terrible because if you invest yourself in a character/plotline, resolution either never comes OR (worse) is totally shattered when the next creator wants to "try something different". All American comics (except Usagi Yojimbo, which has been done by a single creator for it's entire run) have eventually lost me when some new hotshot writer felt he had to "shake up" the "stale, boring" characters. I wonder if something like the iPad will bring in a new comics renaissance, since it can shrink the cost of publishing a new comic digitally down to pretty much nothing, and there's already a LOT of creativity and variance in webcomics. (yes, there is a lot of derivativeness too) |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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HAHAHAHAHAHA, ok, this excerpt from "Justice" is awesome, it should've been included as a quote in the article:
"...it is always noted that it is unclear what his (Wolverine's) mutant abilities are. Professor X must've had a lot of time on his hands to go all the way to Canada and scout out a guy who wasn't even clearly a mutant! At length, his mutant powers were finally revealed to be: 1. the ability to quickly heal from any wounds and 2. a tracking ability. What the hey...!? After all that big talk, I thought for sure his abilities would be absolutely awesome, but he's the lamest X-Man of all!" |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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I know what you mean. Whenever a new Spirou team is announced, I just have to check out their album. It's nice to have a constant that doesn't get stale. However, I will always prefer stories with a proper beginning, middle and end. It encourages me to read all sorts of different stories instead of just sticking to the ones with my favourite characters. [/quote]But even though many manga characters while not exactly in the superhero mold they pretty much have stereotypical archetypes too. I mean read any shounen or shoujo manga and the same themes (stereotypes) pop up over and over again. They are just as contrived as a by the numbers superhero book. It all depends on personal taste I suppose but I really hate the "American comics are not as complex as Japanese comics" argument. Clearly they are not reading the right titles. I ask you to see a manga-ka create something like Pax Romana by Johnathan Hickman. If you prefer manga good for you but don't try and paint American/Western comics with broad brush strokes.[/quote] The big difference between the two industries. While it's through Japanese comics also have their archetypes, these archetypes don't rule the industry. The archetype shounen hero is an important part of the Japanese industry, but he doesn't dominate it like the American superhero. I'm well aware that there are plenty of great American comics that aren't superhero comics, but most of them are overshadowed by the iconic superheroes. It's as if the industry is saying: this is what you should be reading. It's not exactly inviting for people who aren't interested in superhero comics.
I'm sure some would have been interested, if they had been contacted by Reprise like DC/Vertigo were 
That's true, but hey, don't forget about the European comics! Those always seem to come last outside of Europe 
It's not that uncommon for a mangaka and writer to team up. Even Shounen Jump has plenty of series that were written and drawn by different people. Besides, there is always an editor who can serve as a kind of quality check. |
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rockman nes
Posts: 271 |
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What color is the sky in your world? Look at the most popular manga titles in Japan (or the US, for that matter) and get back with me.. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Blue. My guess is the one in your world is red.
I'm not denying certain shounen series are big business, but have you seen what else sells really well besides stuff like Detective Conan and One Piece (two vastly different series, by the way!)? Pluto, Vagabond, Nodame Cantabile, Nana, Saint Young Man, Kimi ni Todoke... There's plenty of variety in the avarage list of best selling manga in Japan! Manga isn't automatically associated with Luffy, Conan or Goku like American comics are with Superman, Spider-man or Batman. |
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rockman nes
Posts: 271 |
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Fixed that for you. Look, it's obvious we're never going to see eye to eye on this, so why don't we just agree to disagree? With that being said, let me give you some solid advice: Don't trash a medium you know little of. That is all. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Yeah, everyone who questions the greatness of superhero comics is a stupid weeaboo and enemy of American comics in general. By equating American comics as a whole with superhero comics, you've just proven my point.
Maybe you should read something that isn't Shounen Jump and you know, learn what the other best selling manga are about The manga forum people would all be happy the help you find some excellent josei en seinen manga, so stop by when you get the chance!
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Shay Guy
 Posts: 2112 |
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There's another problem with the successful comics going on for decades after the original creator stopped, sometimes decades after their death: less room for new blood. Two of the currently most popular series in American comics have been on that list for 70 years. Few are more recent than the '60s, and hardly any are from the past decade. By contrast, take this list: 1997, 1999, 2001, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2006, 2000, 2007. The turnover rate has to contribute to manga's greater variety, even without taking into account what kinds of stories (i.e., soap-opera structure) are designed to be indefinitely extensible.
No mainstream storytelling medium other than American comics relies so much on a small set of intellectual properties as far as I know. Imagine if the maximum copyright term were to be retroactively shortened to 40 years. Manga publishers would hardly notice. American comics? They'd be in trouble. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I'd say that for American comics they present universes versus stories in general.
Think about it, most of the superhero works have arcs that have beginnings, middles, and ends but the universe that it occurs in does not, thus making more arcs ad infinitum (at least as long as they make money) . Most manga have arcs too, but they end and with them the universe they contained is no longer looked at. (Imagine how many different Japans there are, and just in manga....) So they definitively have 1 beginning, 1 middle, 1 end. @littlegreenwolf, I'd recommend from my collection to read Alex Ross' and Mark Waid's Kingdom Come . Seriously a good view of Superman. Other good views would be Stan Lee Presents: Superman the Elseworlds Superman/Tarzan team-up and one of the real worlds comics worth reading Justice League of America . I'll admit my comic collection is more obscure within the common. Edit: If you like Vertigo title than consider Uncle Sam Artwork by Alex Ross. |
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