Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Anime Economics 101
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Provided this was a contractual obligation on their part he has every right to pursue legal action against them to obtain whatever he thinks he is due. And in the future I'd advise him or anyone looking for a residual payment system to demand 3rd party independent auditors (which they could give a cut to ensure their independence).
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Still not sure what you're driving at. You don't need to know who you can buy it from. You just need to search on amazon or elsewhere online or look around in certain stores, neither of which requires you to know who distributes it. You just need the name of the series. I can see where directly advertising the DVD release after the stream as they sometimes do would be somewhat helpful but for the most part, I still don't see much reason that free streams would boost sales anymore than fansubs and if the fansubs are still out there than you've still got all the negative elements as well. So if streams themselves are actually generating revenue then great. If not though then I have to wonder if they're really making much of a difference. |
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OLady
Posts: 163 Location: Texas |
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Xanas, please distill and explain that long-winded rant on government intervention. Whose government? What intervention? Just what are you proposing? Is there actually a plan or system contained in there somewhere? Why not lay it out simply and coherently? Discussion usually garners more results than diatribe.
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Sorry, I shouldn't have answered, it's not my opinion but his, and I agree with you that people should be able to do this. I think perhaps his opinion and that of Funimation is that people won't do this for some reason. That if they can only watch on an illegal streaming website they'll never have interest necessary to search for legal products that support the creators of the series. I'd argue against this notion. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Copyright law is the intervention I was referring to. The government is in this case really a collection of multiple governments who have their own copyright laws. I referred mostly to Japan's laws (being less draconian against downloaders), but with that exception most of the rest applies just as much in the US.
I'm proposing eliminating copyright, and allowing the free market (producers and consumers, as part of that market) to act in accordance with their own desires. The "system" or "plan" is not specific because the outcome that would come about would be dependent on market interactions. There are probably multiple systems for distribution that would come about, and the collective market would decide on one or more depending on individual desires. I did define some possibilities there, which you may not have understood due to the confusion over what intervention I was referring to. To be specific, an idea I like (but wouldn't be the only method for supporting creators) is this: 1) Producers make anime, they seek to provide initial copies of their anime to those willing to pay the highest cost (just as they do now). TV Networks, etc. would still bid as now. 2) Producers would endorse the distributor who bid the highest cost, and buyer would agree to perhaps some residual/profit sharing agreement as part of this endorsement. 3) Consumers, have a choice between going with this original distributor (just as they do now), or going with other alternative distributors (just as they do now). Consumers are able to determine the difference between bootleg and real merchandise by means of the producers endorsement (which could be listed on a website managed by the producer). 4) Should distributors come into existence that lie and claim endorsement they don't have, consumers would be wronged. Consumers would have every reason to seek recompense to restore the money spent on "bootleg" (in the sense of sold under false pretense, not in the sense it's thought of now) and purchase a copy that supports the producer as intended. Some level of damages for lying to the consumer would also be perfectly valid in these situations, and I'm sure people would (as they do now) have websites available to attest to the crooks who'd try and claim endorsements they don't have. 5) Specialized distributors (those who make foreign language dubs or subs), would be similarly possible, and unlike the current system where they have to pay a licensing fee they could sell their add-on dub as a separate product if they desired or release it free or whatever they wanted to do. |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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So your offering a pipe dream Xanas of things that will never happen, gotcha...
Seriously your discounting the entire reason why copyright exists and under your method the artists and creative would make less money than they are now, as in your system say if I wanted to distribute your work/sell your work, I don't pay you anything, in fact your practically doing all the work for me and I can try to reap the benefits of that work without giving you anything back. There has to be a profit motive so that our creatives can engage in their outlandish habits that were developed from an early age, like eating food and having a place to live, which is why we give them their monopolies on their works and because most creatives in the anime and manga industry are legally adults means they can distribute their as they see fit and under whatever agreement they have signed, they are adults, so let them be free to enter the agreements they want, even if you yourself think they are a bad deal for them, that is for the artist to decide, not us. @ikillchicken: The benefit of online streaming I find is more of trying to plug some holes right now than a generator of income, although it is great if it can increase DVD/BD sales, although from a publisher/distributor standpoint if you are going into their channels for 1 series they hope you explore other series within their channels as they would like for you to buy into anime more than buy into 1 series, so knowledge of who they are and what they have can be of benefit. For me personally the streaming portion is the last step/weeding out process that I do and it's for series that either the premise hasn't sold me (like with What Le Chevalier D'Eon) or that reviews haven't sold me (Tweeny Witches), so far it has led me to actually going no this series isn't worth buying more than I need to go out and get this. So it's a wait and see approach how ths will play out... |
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Sydney2K
Posts: 219 Location: Australia |
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Regarding the returns that a manga artist may get, the Kyoto International Manga Museum has a room that describes the history and workings of the manga industry, and one of the displays is a very funny graphic of where the money actually does go. Needless to say, you are correct when you say the artist gets very little.
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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It might never happen, but many things will never happen.
1) Copyright doesn't solve the issue you present, under the current system people perform unauthorized distribution. 2) The reason for this is plain, copyright is not a natural right. It's a government granted monopoly. It's a utilitarians attempt to get people to produce more by providing incentive. 3) You can't continue to "reap benefit" if my production doesn't continue in your scenario. Consumers know this. Distributors know this. Humans may not always act in a perfectly rational manner, but provided incentive (lack of production in response to their failure to pay), they will change what they do accordingly. Musicians have concerts, those who write books and those who make anime have conventions to get the word out about themselves and their needs for support.
First, let me make it abundantly clear that on the matter of profit motive I'm an ardent supporter. I believe strongly in the core values of free market capitalism. I believe that individualism and self interest are the driving forces behind prosperity. I am, however, against state attempts to drive the economy, including granting of rights and monopolies. On this matter of profit, I must make it clear that copyright has not always existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright_law
As can be seen here, the state's and religious authorities major interest in copyright was primarily to prevent the dissemination of that which they did not desire. Of course, to get the people to agree for it they had to provide a carrot, that carrot being this theorized benefit for artists who were providing "state approved" works. Certainly, censorship is not the main argument now, but that censorship was at that time part of the reason isn't a contentious matter. Whether artists would make more or less under capitalism and whether we'd see more or less anime is unknowable. It's up to artists and consumers to decide on those issues with how they spend their money and choose to act to support their own desired ends. Stephan Kinsella has a good book on the IP subject. http://mises.org/resources/3582/Against-Intellectual-Property |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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You are walking close to the soapboxing line, fyi. I know you love to rant on copyright law and plug your idea of how it should work, but if you're going to turn this thread in to your personal rant then I've got to warn you that that isn't going to happen.
[Edit: Removed any commentary regarding the topic, warning still stands. - Keonyn] Last edited by Keonyn on Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And if Keonyn doesn't happen to be online when the copyright soapboxing continues then I'll happily pull the trigger on it.
Concerning the new season, I've seen as many titles that interest me enough to follow them this Summer season as in a typical summer or winter season - i.e. 2-3 series. I'll certainly keep watching Occult Acadamy and HSotD and I may stick with Asobi ni Ikuyo, too. I haven't gotten out to theaters anywhere near as much this summer season as I usually do, but Iron Man 2 worked for me, Predators was okay, and Inception is, in a word, awesome. (Don't go into it expecting light entertainment, though, because this one will keep you thinking even while wowing you with things like fights done in shifting gravity perspectives.) |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Keonyn, if your desire as a moderator is to get me to shut up all you have to do is ask. This will be my last post in the thread, and I'm only going to argue with you because you had to put a challenge to me with this "unsustainable" remark.
It's the current system that is unsustainable. The regular complaints about piracy destroying this or that and the constant encroachment of anti-piracy law on civil liberties to protect industries make it clear that things won't stay like they are now. IP isn't the only problem we've got but crony capitalist policies need to end if we're going to maintain freedom. |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I agree so why do you keep proposing a "crony" capitalist, free market system then, as you said yourself your system that you propose cannot work as you said:
As I agree, it can't so why are you proposing it? This system has failed both in hypothetical and in history, so your "new" idea just needs to go back down to the past and stay there. We need to move forward. Again, the system you proposed does not stop someone from taking someone's work and profiting from it and not compensating them in any fashion. We had a period in history like that, the 1800's and periods of that before, a period when authors and artists had others distribute their work without copyright and not see a dime of money for their efforts. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Hardly, my desire is to get you to stop soapboxing about copyright law and your ideas of an ideal market everytime something even slightly related crops up. Besides, I never said the current system is sustainable, but neither is yours. I'm afraid some measure of copyright protection is necessary if you're going to expect the artisans of the world to actually be capable of producing their products, particularly considering how time and labor intensive modern mediums are. You can't sustain the talent if you give them no rights to their work that can realistically earn them enough income for their time and effort. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Can we put this in another thread please and split this to somewhere I can be allowed to discuss it since there seems to be the intention of replying to me.
I hate going back on my word about not posting, but both of you seem to want to discuss this even though you want to tell me how I can't do so. I will say this though, LordRedhand, I do not at all believe that all capitalism is crony capitalism, that a system full of government intervention can in any way be called "free market." I'd also strongly contest that the world without copyright failed, on the contrary, it succeeded to the point governments had to stifle it. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well, unfortunately it's really far too political to really be relevant to any of the forums aside from the community forum or via PM's. If you opened a thread in the anime forum I can't guarantee it's longevity since it would undoubtedly become a soapbox for people to argue politics with little attention to anime, and this is an anime forum and not a political forum.
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