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NEWS: Hen Zemi's Tagro Addresses Illegally Streamed Videos


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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:45 am Reply with quote
Sobbbb... I think that it's good to get the Japanese creators' perspective on this issue, and that it brings up lots of good things for us fans to consider... but that last thread was just soooo ugly and mean, I don't want to do this again.
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Posts: 1426
Location: New York
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:54 am Reply with quote
The last one was heated...I never expected people to be defending their pirating habits like that.

However...I wonder if we'll be getting an influx of creators and artists openly speaking out against people stealing their work. If that's the case...Where's your "they don't care!" argument now, huh?!
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1727
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:10 am Reply with quote
Leeches will do all they can to justify getting things for free. And that's the real problem here. You can't just beat getting something for free. Even if companies were to release things as soon as the official one comes, they will still think of excuses to get said product for free. Even legal and free streaming, still isn't good enough as I can see them saying things like, "fansub group is closer to the original!" or "Pesky ads! Wont' watch it that way!" As long as this way of thinking continues, small niche companies like the anime industry will always be in trouble these days.
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Shichimi



Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:58 am Reply with quote
RestlessOne wrote:
The last one was heated...I never expected people to be defending their pirating habits like that.

However...I wonder if we'll be getting an influx of creators and artists openly speaking out against people stealing their work. If that's the case...Where's your "they don't care!" argument now, huh?!


My sentiments exactly. As I said in the other thread, the floodgates may spill open, leaving fansub users in no doubt as to the position of the creators. Really, these guys should have been much more vocal earlier on; if anyone has a hope of reeducating the 'fans', it's surely the creators.

It's about time.


Last edited by Shichimi on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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scchan



Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 143
Location: Exeter, UK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:59 am Reply with quote
hissatsu01 wrote:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”


I giggled when I saw your avatar and your quotation. Twisted Evil
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:18 am Reply with quote
Quote:
"I understand the feelings of annoyance that creators get when their material is watched for free. I get annoyed when an anime BD I just bought is posted on the net!"

It's been a while since I've seen a remark like this. First time for anime, though.

Quote:
TAGRO expressed his incredulity at her response.

Not surprising. Most, regardless of their position on the issue, will completely miss the reason for the statement.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:47 am Reply with quote
DoktorZetsubou wrote:
Guess I overestimate people...


I've always considered myself a pessimist, but I've come to realize it's more of a fatalistic optimist. I hope for the best, but am not surprised when it doesn't happen.

If people/companies/whatever did the right thing here in the US, we wouldn't need half the laws they draft. We all know not to kill/steal, etc. But because people text or use their stupid cells while their driving, we see states having ot pass laws specifically prohibiting such behavior when, in California at least, the law states one cannot drive distracted. That's no eating, talking on the phone or whatever. You are supposed to drive as though that rabbit might jump in front of you at any moment so you can be prepared to react. But no, it's too vague. "I can talk on the phone & won't get so caught up in the conversation I don't see the 3 yr old toddle out into my path!"

So it's more human nature-getting away with what they can/have lunch on the weekends going to Costco & eating free samples.We all know a sample is a SAMPLE. It is not the whole fricken carton. If the store gives you a whole can-great, but most samples are just a taste so you can see if it pleases you--not 110 episodes of Galactic Heroes.

Yes, irt is frustrating to have to wait for a license, but anime is MADE IN JAPAN FOR JAPANESE FANS. First & foremost. ALL of us outside of Japan DO NOT have any right on this planet to see one minute of anime or one page of manga because it is not made for us. Period. End of sentance. Forrget copyright & all that stuff because it is not made in our country so the peopel who make it have every right to export it OR NOT & it is not up to ANY fansubber to override those desires. Because they do, because they fall into that "The law doesn't apply to me because I can drive my car & read a text at the same time" that they somehow have more rights than the creators, we are in this place. Because they do their best to exploit loopholes, we have fans who have come to expect the ability to read every & any manga & see every & any anime practically simultaneously to the original release.
If I make cupcakes for my daughter, I have made cupcakes for my daughter. I should not expect people from Canada or Mexico or more distant nations on my doorstep demanding to eat cupcakes.

The only reason I can see for the industry to have been so slow to move on this IS
1-many of them came up thru the old school fan network. Trust me, kiddies-most of you ARE NOT anywhere near that. The purpose back then was spreading the good word of whatever one supported. One tried to get people to watch Star Trek so they would join the legions. One called the radio asking for songs of one's favorite band to get them more exposure so they could sell more product.
The idea of thumbing one's nose at the band/creator/whatever & saying "Forget you" when asked to stop a behavior the person/group asked one to do would be totally unthinkable. In fact, it separated the fans from the money-grubbing opportunists who moved in to make a buck off fans with cheap knock-off, etc. THe behavior of modern fansubbers is outside the realm these guys operated in.

2-The customer is always right. This is a hard one to move past, but society as a whole has been, Again, in the day we had wonderful return policies & such, but the exploiter exploited & return policies became incredibly restrictive. Can you believe I used ot take 6 months to return an item when i was in my 20's? Maybe longer. Buy a shirt-6 months later find it in my closet with the tag-took it back. When I worked at Montgomery Wards, the managers always had to deal with people bringing back stuff they knew was a year old, but in the name of good will, they'd return it.
But times have changed, haven't they? It's shifted more to "The customer has to have full documentation or you're S.O.L" Because in the day anime was spread by word of mouth, the companies seemed afraid to speak up, though one got the impression they really disliked fansubs, but were afraid of offending customers.
Now they've figured out not only is there a solid segment of the fandom that does not buy anime or manga (but brag about the size of what's on their computer hard drive & storage devices), but that anime is operating on some strange evaluation system mopst other forms of entertainment do not, the companies & authors are speaking up.
It's like standing in line. Someone cuts & one might be upset, but depending on one's personality, one may not speak up, but fume silently. If it happens enough, most of us will reach our breaking point, ball up our fist like McFly & take a swing.

3-The manga-kas/creators/VA's. This is, in a way, the most inexcusable line of all of it. Do you READ their comments? God, many of the artisits seem to be hikkikomoris almost. Holed up in their studios, making manga, playing video games....some just might melt in the sun. So these poor, talented souls slaving away to make ttheir product for their meager pay hear "I'm from America & I like your work" "Someone outside of Japan likes my work? I'm honored!" Franklly, until around 2002 & the TP Manga revolution, the American market was a vast, untapped sea of opportunity most never even dreamed of setting sail upon. Even after getting stuff licensed, many probably had no real idea which specific titles were licensed where so a fan from Queens gushing about "Loli Girls Do It In The Dark" would be more likely to elicit a "Thank you" than a "Did you buy a legal copy?" It''s sort of how one does the fan thing-go to a location, sign stuff-smile & say thank you. Frankly, it's a sea of faces they probably forget within a week, but the size of the crowd may make them happy for the rest of their lives.
So basically the whole "The authors are ok with it" is one of the nastier excuses out there. You are taking advantage of the author's kind nature. Stop.
Basically we had a nation-by-nation culture the internet has dragged kicking & screaming into a world culture. Because of the advantage takers, we are seeing things done that could have been avoided & we'll all pay

THere was no fricken reason for ratings to be put on music if parents simply did their jobs & parents knew what their kids were into.

As we see the changes wrought on anime & manga thanks to fansubbers & downloaders...
Thank you so very much for extra hoops to jump thru.
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haldenlith



Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:11 pm Reply with quote
I was agreeing with everything until fansubbers got called the pirates.

Sooo... a group of people, who take time out of their day to scan their copies of manga from Japan, go through each page, translate every single piece of text (and add footnotes so that the readers can understand cultural items), re-type every item in the manga, and edit it are doing just because they want something for free? Even when they're not getting paid to do any of that? So I guess we all need to learn Japanese/Korean to read everything, then?

Sorry, I don't follow this train of thought. Hell, especially when we get into fansubbing anime episodes, because then you get into video editing and timing. It's a crap-ton of work. Who we have time blame are the same people the fansubbers want to rip a new one, because they're usually the same sort of jerkoffs that post stuff everywhere, despite being told not to.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:28 pm Reply with quote
haldenlith wrote:
Sooo... a group of people, who take time out of their day to scan their copies of manga from Japan, go through each page, translate every single piece of text (and add footnotes so that the readers can understand cultural items), re-type every item in the manga, and edit it are doing just because they want something for free? Even when they're not getting paid to do any of that? So I guess we all need to learn Japanese/Korean to read everything, then?


Officially-yes, we all need to learn Japanese or Korean.
Manga & anime is made for Japanese consumption. There should be no expectation outside of Japan to be able tp view these products. People, for various reasons, have for years fansubbed, but the limits have been pushed past the point of no return & actions are being taken finally.
In the past, one WOULD have had to learn Japanese or pay personally for somone to translate the item for one.
In tha past there was the Code of Fanbsubbers to take down the fansub when the title was licensed, but that isn't happening any longer. Excuses, excuses-"Bleach is too far along to stop now!" Yet had they stopped then, the point they were at would likely have been passed by now. BUT YOU CAN'T EXPECT FANS TO WAIT!!!!" Like I had to wait for Ice Kunion to turn into Yen Press toi finish Antique Gift Shop, Angel Diary, & 1001 Nights? Like I had to wait for Ranma, Bastard & InuYasha to unflop & catch up to where I had been when Viz decided to release them in authenic Japanese orientation?

Those of us in the US, Romania, Outer Mongolia or anywhere outside of Japan should have no expectation to anime or manga. Each one is a gift to the fandom to accept or reject as it is licensed. Fansubbing has been ignored, but they or maybe really the downloaders using them, have pushed it to a point whnere actions are being taken & yeah, I do foress at some point fansubbing will be seriously reduced or ended if for any other reason it becomes pointless. The industry will come up with something & many of us will likely be annoyed to some extent to the conditions of how we receive anime in our future & we can curse the whole fansub entity for those restrictions for their failure to reign themselves in .
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haldenlith



Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:37 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

Officially-yes, we all need to learn Japanese or Korean.
Manga & anime is made for Japanese consumption. There should be no expectation outside of Japan to be able tp view these products. People, for various reasons, have for years fansubbed, but the limits have been pushed past the point of no return & actions are being taken finally.
In the past, one WOULD have had to learn Japanese or pay personally for somone to translate the item for one.
In the past there was the Code of Fanbsubbers to take down the fansub when the title was licensed, but that isn't happening any longer. Excuses, excuses-"Bleach is too far along to stop now!" Yet had they stopped then, the point they were at would likely have been passed by now. BUT YOU CAN'T EXPECT FANS TO WAIT!!!!" Like I had to wait for Ice Kunion to turn into Yen Press toi finish Antique Gift Shop, Angel Diary, & 1001 Nights? Like I had to wait for Ranma, Bastard & InuYasha to unflop & catch up to where I had been when Viz decided to release them in authenic Japanese orientation?

Those of us in the US, Romania, Outer Mongolia or anywhere outside of Japan should have no expectation to anime or manga. Each one is a gift to the fandom to accept or reject as it is licensed. Fansubbing has been ignored, but they or maybe really the downloaders using them, have pushed it to a point whnere actions are being taken & yeah, I do foress at some point fansubbing will be seriously reduced or ended if for any other reason it becomes pointless. The industry will come up with something & many of us will likely be annoyed to some extent to the conditions of how we receive anime in our future & we can curse the whole fansub entity for those restrictions for their failure to reign themselves in .


While I see what you mean, I still wouldn't support the reduction of fansubs, largely because, personally, everything I watch/read is never, ever licensed. One of my more favorite mangas, Hoshi no Yakata, still isn't licensed, prolly never will be, and I think it was released in the 90s. I don't agree with fansub groups keeping stuff up after it is licensed, but I do know some groups these days are getting paid to keep their stuff going (I don't remember who, but I recall a group that did Naruto subs getting tapped to do subbing for... Viz? Funi? I don't remember who releases Naruto).

Still, as said, from what I've noticed, the biggest issue is the people who use the fansubs and distribute them and less the groups themselves.
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garfield15



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 1515
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:08 pm Reply with quote
You know, honestly, I think video rippers are the biggest problem.
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JRT



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:18 pm Reply with quote
So I'm confused. Is it prohibited to watch subbed anime on YouTube, or unprohibited?
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Sheleigha wrote:
My thoughts were more 0_o. So wait, she gets annoyed when she pays for a product and then someone puts it online for free? Which is... her reason for doing it? I'm kind of confused...

My 2nd thought was she was upset she didn't get to post it first

But my FIRST thought was she was upset she wasted her money on buying it when she could have gotten it for free.

It's sort of like in the day I'd buy anime in the accepted format (single dvds-usually 6 for 26 eps, but maybe 8) & then a year later the company would release the cheaper box set. Oh well.

Quote:
So I'm confused. Is it prohibited to watch subbed anime on YouTube, or unprohibited?


The only parties with the legal right to post items on YouTube should be the parties that created said items. The entire concept as I understand is YOU post something that YOU made on You Tube. If the company that made it or the company that licensed the product for sale or the original creator of the item did not post the item, no, you shouldn't watch it out of respect for the parties that own it.
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Sheleigha



Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 1671
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:43 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Sheleigha wrote:
My thoughts were more 0_o. So wait, she gets annoyed when she pays for a product and then someone puts it online for free? Which is... her reason for doing it? I'm kind of confused...

My 2nd thought was she was upset she didn't get to post it first

But my FIRST thought was she was upset she wasted her money on buying it when she could have gotten it for free.

It's sort of like in the day I'd buy anime in the accepted format (single dvds-usually 6 for 26 eps, but maybe 8) & then a year later the company would release the cheaper box set. Oh well.


When thin packs came out, I was pretty mad (except for the fact that some of my singles had real nice inserts, like the RahXephon booklets).

But yeah I was more thinking your first thought. The idea of not being able to post it "first" is stupid. It's a silly thing that on many places that have replies to videos/blog news, etc, there always is the person that HAS to write "FIRST!!!111!!!" This carries into many subbers etc that ALWAYS have to compete to have the video out FIRST! *sigh*...
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:56 pm Reply with quote
haldenlith wrote:
I was agreeing with everything until fansubbers got called the pirates.

Sooo... a group of people, who take time out of their day to scan their copies of manga from Japan, go through each page, translate every single piece of text (and add footnotes so that the readers can understand cultural items), re-type every item in the manga, and edit it are doing just because they want something for free? Even when they're not getting paid to do any of that? So I guess we all need to learn Japanese/Korean to read everything, then?

Sorry, I don't follow this train of thought. Hell, especially when we get into fansubbing anime episodes, because then you get into video editing and timing. It's a crap-ton of work. Who we have time blame are the same people the fansubbers want to rip a new one, because they're usually the same sort of jerkoffs that post stuff everywhere, despite being told not to.
If this "group of people" bought their copy from a legal bookshop in Japan and then did all that work to translate it for their own consumption only then there is no problem with that at all. The problem starts when said group then uploads all that work on to the world wide web for all and sundrey to download to see anytime, anywhere without the sole consent of the creator, author, or licensed distributor. That's when said group becomes a crew of pirates. Get it now? Wink
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