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Please stop talking about piracy the dead horse has been beaten into a bloody smear at this point.

Please stop reading if the topic no longer interests you.

Speaking as a fan who got in during the 80s, I can attest that EVEN THEN the same issue existed, though of course at a much lower frequency. We could have bought VHS tapes from Japan (and some of us did--I still remember counting the hours until I got my first Votoms OAV through Animage's short-lived overseas mail order service), but for the most part they were prohibitively expensive and difficult to locate.

We still had to look ourselves in the mirror, though, so whenever I got a bunch of free anime on a VHS tape, my justification was that I'd buy as much merch as I could find for the shows I liked. That still holds today, hence the Mandarake replica I now live in. There was some backup to that justification, at least for TV shows--they originally went out on the air for free and money was recouped by merchandising. So really, we were doing right by Japan as long as we followed up.

Regardless, that was another root of the freebie mentality that permeates fandom today. That and the inflated sense of ownership you got from scoring the stuff and then figuring out what it was about. (Oh, the blood feuds that came out of that...)

A lot of this was mollified with when legal imports made it easier for us, and before the internet came along, I don't think piracy cut a very deep swath into domestic sales.

I support any attempt to encourage responsible consumerism, but it is a bit of a mug's game if you don't have a forum that's equal to the magnitude of the problem. Therefore, the next best thing is to stoke the passion, which can be incredibly powerful if used for good. Thus, my message would be: the money you saved by getting that thing for free can now be spent on the merch that will help it to continue. Buy with reckless abandon!

(Apologies if this was covered in the last 45 minutes of this most excellent 'cast; I'm saving that part for tomorrow.)

Correction: Animage's mail order service was actually an AD in Animage magazine for "Animate World Service." Man, was that a sweet 15 minutes...

agila61 wrote:

Its seems like piracy defenders focus more effort attacking the piracy moralists, and characterizing people who disagree with them as piracy moralists, and don't focus so much on the piracy pragmatists, for a range of reasons.

Well hang on. How openly do you define 'piracy defender'? Is it just someone always pirates everything (or even most things) or does it also include people who merely have a somewhat liberal stance on it and don't rule it out absolutely. I'd say that if it includes both types, it's no surprise you see them arguing more with moralists than with pragmatists. You see, you're trying to classify everyone into these three groups but in reality, it's more of a spectrum. Here's how I'd break it down from one side to the other in terms of the acceptability of piracy:

From the most liberal...

-I have a moral right to always pirate.

-If I can pirate I always will regardless of the effects.

-I should always pirate. It is beneficial to the industry to do so.

-It is okay to pirate always because it is harmless to the industry that I do so.

-Piracy is sometimes harmful but it is still okay to pirate as long as it isn't enough to do serious damage. (obviously there is a great deal of variation within this group as to what amount of piracy causes serious damage).

-Piracy is sometimes harmful and whenever it does harm it is wrong regardless of severity of the damage. It is sometimes harmless though and therefore is acceptable.

-Piracy is always wrong regardless of whether it hurts the industry and therefore it is never acceptable.

...to the most conservative.

NOTE: Obviously this is not absolute and there will be some occasional unique positions that do not fit and those that do will still contain some degree of variation

You'll notice that on this spectrum, the three middle positions are all best described as pragmatic despite the fact that they contain people at least open to piracy. Hence, if you're using the more general classification of 'piracy defenders'...those are the piracy pragmatists. Even if you split it down the middle, you'll still find that for all these people, it really only comes down to a question of practicality. What exactly are the effects of piracy? There is potentially still a great deal of common ground to be found. The moralists however, hold the most extreme positions and frequently, the more absolute positions which tends to put them at odds with everyone in that entire middle ground.

I'm not sure I completely appreciate their attributing the collapse of the anime industry to younger fans. I am twenty and, yes, I grew up in a world where things were readily available for download for me, and yes, I've watched some anime series streamed online

but

I do so in order to sample the series. If I enjoyed it enough to watch the entire thing online, I always then go out and buy it the moment I have the money (as a poor college student, I do not always have cash on hand).

I think that (as some companies do with the occasional show), a few episodes should be released online for free for people to sample. Manga can already be sampled in that you can pick it up off the Borders shelf and flip through it to see if it intrigues you, but you can't do the same for DVDs. Five years ago, when I first became an anime fan, I bought the entire DNAngel series, as well as .HACK//Legend of the Twilight, and was absolutely heartbroken when they both ended up sucking. That's money that I can't get back (I've never been able to sell them for a decent price). Anime should be allowed to be sampled before bought.

With that being said, I think fans have a moral obligation to buy the products that they enjoy. If you are a self-proclaimed fan of Bleach, then you should go out and buy the DVDs instead of ripping them off the internet. If you are a fan of Hetalia, buy it when it comes out in September, instead of watching and re-watching it on YouTube. You cannot consider yourself a fan if you are unwilling to support the very thing which you claim to like, if you have the means to do so.
That’s my take on it.

(Oh, and back to the ‘age gap’ thing…I’m sure there are men in their forties pirating anime just as there are thirteen year old fangirls doing so. Same way that there are poor college students like me paying for their anime exactly like the elder generations do. Is there a tendency for more pirating to happen in the younger audiences? Probably. I was wanted to point this out, since the webcast discussion never did)

As most current anime are already streaming somewhere, I'd say you have the "put a few eps online so I can sample" already.

Tokyopop editor Daniella Orihuela-Gruber has a couple great articles on her blog, this one directly coming out of the recent Black Butler controversy-
http://allaboutcomics.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/causing-death-industry/

And this one an older on which the new article links to that's also useful in light of these conversations-
http://allaboutcomics.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/ten-ways-to-not-steal-manga/

I love this podcast to bits and pieces!

The word 'free' gets misused in my opinion. If something was assigned a price then it is not free.

Easy to steal is not the same as free.

**Tongue in cheekiness to follow**

Piracy is a deep subject. It conjures up far more than just anime fans with questionable ethics or arguably noble pursuits. For some it's a phase and others it's a lifestyle. As long as life continues, it's not going away.

The line is between being parasitic and being symbiotic.

It's no wonder how people can be so emotional about their 'right' to do whatever they want. Imagine that kind of power. Don't let it slip thru your fingers. Imagine it also because that's the closest you're going to come to it.

However, the things you'd like to have power over obviously have power over you. so much for total control.

There are elements of addiction and education at play. People will not always be able to control themselves and others will have no idea why they should even try.

Yes, the artist/writer/creator (as well as the other people in the profit and production pipeline) are trying to seduce and hook you. Everyone wants a hit. Ultra Meth on Steroids in God Mode(a.k.a. Scott Pilgrim for Zac and Justin apparently Very Happy

).

Territorialism is a somewhere between a con job and bullying. It's pretty clear what belongs to who but they will try to convince you otherwise or just intimidate you to get you out of the way.

Be glad most people don't masturbate in public...oh wait...Manga Cows... moo moo moo moo MOOOOOO

(eeeyeewww)

ikillchicken wrote:

agila61 wrote:

Its seems like piracy defenders focus more effort attacking the piracy moralists, and characterizing people who disagree with them as piracy moralists, and don't focus so much on the piracy pragmatists, for a range of reasons.

Well hang on. How openly do you define 'piracy defender'? Is it just someone always pirates everything (or even most things) or does it also include people who merely have a somewhat liberal stance on it and don't rule it out absolutely.

This is where three cornered arguments are messier to two sided debates. Piracy pragmatists include those who think its personally wrong but who would let others take care of their own moral choices except for the damage done to the industry, and those who think there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it except for the damage done to the industry. And people in the messy middle of viewing it as more or less wrong but who don't always expect themselves or others to do the right thing.

There's the personal morality of the behavior, and there's the question of what to do if, in fact, the activity damages the industry.

Quote:

I'd say that if it includes both types, it's no surprise you see them arguing more with moralists than with pragmatists. You see, you're trying to classify everyone into these three groups but in reality, it's more of a spectrum. Here's how I'd break it down from one side to the other in terms of the acceptability of piracy:

From the most liberal...

-I have a moral right to always pirate.

-If I can pirate I always will regardless of the effects.

-I should always pirate. It is beneficial to the industry to do so.

-It is okay to pirate always because it is harmless to the industry that I do so.

These are the piracy defenders.

OK, so there are two sets of piracy defenders: those defending the piracy irrespective of its affect, and those defending it in terms of its impact on the industry.

Of course, the second line of defense can be deployed both sincerely by those would oppose piracy if they found that it did harm ~ and insincerely by those who will simply insist on the next rationalization if the one that they are setting forward falls apart.

Quote:

-Piracy is sometimes harmful but it is still okay to pirate as long as it isn't enough to do serious damage. (obviously there is a great deal of variation within this group as to what amount of piracy causes serious damage).

This is just a rationalization when its "somebody else's" piracy that does harm and "my piracy" that is harmless. So I'd reckon the proof of the pudding is in the eating: if they reliably present this position to defend the particular type of piracy they engage in, its being a piracy defender.

If they use this to argue (or even to work) to oppose the type of piracy they present as doing damage, then they are far more likely to be piracy pragmatists.

Quote:

-Piracy is sometimes harmful and whenever it does harm it is wrong regardless of severity of the damage. It is sometimes harmless though and therefore is acceptable.

Spreading "acceptable" to cover both "right" and "wrong but not worth worrying too much about", that is the balance of the piracy pragmatists.

Quote:

-Piracy is always wrong regardless of whether it hurts the industry and therefore it is never acceptable.

This is the piracy moralists.

That is one way to lay out a two-dimensional argument onto a single dimension, but a two-dimensional layout may be a better fit to a two-dimensional argument.

1. It is always right to pirate: information should be free and copyright is an illegitimate restriction on human rights

2. Whether piracy is right or wrong depends on whether or not it harms the creators (and of course harm to the industry implies harm to the creators)

3. It is always wrong to pirate: the creators rights are paramount, and even if they are making a mistake in what they do and do not permit, it is their right to make that mistake.

A. Piracy does not cause serious harm to the creators.
B. Piracy causes serious harm to creators.

So for fan behavior, "pro-piracy" in the cause of A is 1A and 2A, "anti-piracy" is 3A. "Pro-piracy" in the case of B is 1B, "anti-piracy" is 2B and 3B.

For company behavior, "pro-enforcement" is B, "anti-enforcement" is A, since irrespective of whether its right or wrong, its a company's responsibility to try to find a way to protect the existing rights of their content creators if the infringement

Quote:

You'll notice that on this spectrum, the three middle positions are all best described as pragmatic despite the fact that they contain people at least open to piracy.

Yes, pragmatism judges morality based on consequences of action, so if no harm, then no foul. That's what pragmatism means.

Quote:

Hence, if you're using the more general classification of 'piracy defenders'...those are the piracy pragmatists. Even if you split it down the middle, you'll still find that for all these people, it really only comes down to a question of practicality. What exactly are the effects of piracy?

For an actual information anarchist, the fight against the evil oppression of the free flow of information by the wicked institution of copyright is more important than whether or not there actually happens to be any manga or anime created.

Quote:

There is potentially still a great deal of common ground to be found. The moralists however, hold the most extreme positions and frequently, the more absolute positions which tends to put them at odds with everyone in that entire middle ground.

I don't fight the moralists, except sometimes quibbling that they don't get sloppy in their morality that while copyright piracy is similar to theft, in that copyright and property rights are similar institutions, it is overstating things to say that copyright infringement is theft.

After all, while highly unlikely that they will convince an active pirate defender that its morally wrong ... maybe they'll convince one or two people hanging on the sidelines, and if so, that's one or two people taken out of the population of pirates that is plaguing the industry.

To me, copyright infringement is wrong if it violates the spirit of copyright ~ if it pragmatically violates the right of the creator to control the making of copies of their works. But if it did not do the damage to the industry that it does, its a misbehavior that I wouldn't worry much about.

Of course, in respect to the ANNcast, even that two dimensional table makes the argument more rational than it is in reality. A lot of pirate defenders present arguments that don't hang together logically, which suggests that they are emotional rather than rational arguments.

Probably one of your three best episodes so far ANNCast. You guys need to schedule Daryl and Mike at least once every two months, because these guys are more entertaining than Northrop, the NISA people, etc. in my opinion. Awesome episode.

I might go to Fanime next year as my first convention and I'm wondering if there's going to be asshats screaming "LINE TRAP" at the top of their lungs. I hate to be an elitist but most of the footage of anime cons I see on youtube are the type of people I hate. Loud mouthed, the internet rulz, pocky munching, ostentatious color wearing type of people. Hell, if I get scarred enough I might drop out of anime fandom completely!

HA! Hilarious. I loved it that when news of pictures of Mike and Dan in cosplay could be found on the internet came up; in the background you could hear a flurry of mouse clicks.

they should find a way to shut down people like agila61 of getting free anime and manga.

since they are not supporting anime anyway rather they are watch it or not.

Spotlesseden wrote:

they should find a way to shut down people like agila61 of getting free anime and manga.

since they are not supporting anime anyway rather they are watch it or not.

Why Hulu would listen to piracy defenders to shut down my access to free ad-streams, I can't make out ... as far as I can tell, the penny of ad revenue when I watch it is as good as anyone else's.

Aja, but even if piracy defenders prevail on Hulu to block my access to ad-streams, I still have my membership at Crunchyroll, so I have already forseen your dastardly plot to block my access to anime and have taken steps to forestall it.

kj_4247 wrote:

Please stop talking about piracy the dead horse has been beaten into a bloody smear at this point.

But wait, there's still so much more to say on the matter!!!

[re-reads all the piracy debate threads posted since 2003 to present]

Nevermind, there really isn't anything more to say. People just aren't listening or caring.

---
"People really do want artists to get paid; they’re just hoping someone else will pay them." Cary Sherman, RIAA President

@Agila61: Do you pirate or steal video game? How is that like to you? May I ask do you have a job and if you do how much do you make?

Piracy is wrong on many level. I don't see how piracy benefit anyone. Piracy is stealing without paying and shoplifting. May I ask if you steal any clothes or stealing music from a music store without paying. Are you willing to kill people in order to get anime and manga illegally?

@Zac and Justin: Good podcast and I'm glad you point out a lot with Mike Toole and Daryl Surat. You're right I'm seeing more new fan doing illegal stuff to get anime, I hope they don't go that low like stealing anime DVDs from store or shoplifitng manga from bookstore because that would make us anime fans look bad and I don't want that to happen. I wish I could be a teacher/educator to new anime/manga fan about the danger of pirating anime, watching illegal fansubs, and reading scanlation. Anybody with me on this??

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