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INTEREST: Black Lagoon, Hellsing Creators Discuss Illegal Uploads


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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:30 pm Reply with quote
Tyrenol wrote:
"Telling people to die for daring to steal their works."

Serious Business. Wink


Yep.
War were declared.
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3738
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:45 pm Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:
Well, I will say that Hiroe and Hirano at least had FUN with their criticism. Also, it was totally badass that Hiroe did a special illustration in the gallery of Blazblue: Continuum Shift


I was just debating if I was going to get that game today. That's one more reason.
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Zac
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ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:54 pm Reply with quote
I reckon I'm a bit tired of this here piracy discussion, especially since we just ran in these exact same circles like a couple days before this one.

Countdown to locked...
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Agila, if you believe the statement's I make are false it's better to say it's false than to say I'm lying, which is totally different in meaning and implies that you have a full understanding of my position and that you know exactly what I know.

It seems like you are still interpreting what I'm saying to mean all fansubbers buy what they previously watch, etc. I'm not saying that. Quite the contrary, I told you that many people do not buy everything they previously watched.

I also acknowledge that many people don't buy anything they watch (though I say most of those in this category don't have money to do so as I don't believe most are in this category because they are callous haters, and if they were then you already can't win them over to your side anyway).

Soundmonkey44 wrote:
Reading through this i find some posters comments rather amusing, I mean Illegal is illegal & wrong is wrong, certain users can try to justify it anyway they want


That's ok, but I think you are misrepresenting the position many people hold. I for one don't believe I'm justifying anything. I don't believe in IP. I don't think there is a right to profit. The purpose of property is the division of scarce resources. IP is not about division of scarce resources but about protection of a right to profit. I understand the reasoning behind it, and I know why people want it.

I agree with the general sentiment that those who work on something people like should have a way of marketing and selling a product that allows them to earn a living.

However, I don't believe it's necessary to have IP to allow for this at all, and sustaining current distribution models is way down on my list of priorities compared to liberty. The invasion of privacy and demands upon use or non-use of individuals physical property required for IP to exist are far too extreme for me to find them consistent with maximum freedom.
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Soundmonkey44



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 1243
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:34 pm Reply with quote
IP? do you mean Intulectual Property? So just becasuse you don't belive in that you think its OK to Pirate copy righted material? Good lord people these days are just....well GOOD LORD. Laughing


Copyright & Intellectual property do exist, they are there for a reason....Xanas...you sound like a smart man..but you also sound like a loon. Laughing
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:39 pm Reply with quote
ptolemy18 wrote:
Yeah, and Sarah Silvermann can't joke about the Holocaust.


Silverman is just plain a no-talent hack period, only (CENSORED SEXUAL ACTS) in order to at least appear to be semi-famous. No need to bring her unfunny attempts at being humorous to the mix.

sykoeent wrote:
Xanas wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
I am pretty sure the guy who just uploaded all of Black Lagoon doesn't buy Black Lagoon. The people who actually buy things and pirate, only pirate the new stuff that isn't available where they live.


Your statement is based on what evidence? I can tell you that this isn't true at all for me personally, so there is at least one anecdote that what you say isn't true. I've also ran some polls on pirate forums in the past, and it wasn't true for many of those who responded there either.


So, you're saying you're one of these "pirateers"? How convenient.


Oh look, Irony!! Pirates pirating a manga series about Pirates!! What are the odds?
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:41 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
Agila, if you believe the statement's I make are false it's better to say it's false than to say I'm lying, which is totally different in meaning and implies that you have a full understanding of my position and that you know exactly what I know.


OK, sorry, you said something false and, as you later revealed, you knew perfectly well that you only knew for sure it was true for you, and had no idea whether or not it was true in general.

Course, that's a mouthful. Bluffing about something being true when you have no basis for knowing is something I'll normally call a "lie" for short.

Quote:
It seems like you are still interpreting what I'm saying to mean all fansubbers buy what they previously watch, etc. I'm not saying that. Quite the contrary, I told you that many people do not buy everything they previously watched.


Nope, not making any such claims.

The buying the shit, that's good. The fansubbing in this environment, when its all going to go up on a large number of leech streaming sites, bringing more people in to watch the collection of fansubs, streaming rips and DVD rips on the leech streaming sites, that's bad.

As far as I am aware, if only fansubbers and scanlators could be persuaded to stop making and distributing bootlegs to be copied without permission thousands or millions of times, they are otherwise supporting fans who buy shit and support the industry.

At the risk of soapboxing, with that in mind, I strongly support Crunchyroll's efforts to get the right to do their own subs and accept member contributed subs, and strongly support OpenManga's experiment with legit fan translations of manga.

Quote:
I also acknowledge that many people don't buy anything they watch (though I say most of those in this category don't have money to do so as I don't believe most are in this category because they are callous haters, and if they were then you already can't win them over to your side anyway).


(1) Innocent and only doing it because they are poor
(2) Callous Haters

... millions of people rarely fall into two nice neat extreme groups. There's also (3) Don't Know (4) Don't Care as long as they get their entertainment (5) Conned by the BS peddled by piracy defenders ...

Really, the statements by the two creators only help for "(3) Don't Know" and "(5) Conned by the BS peddled by piracy defenders".

But no single tweet on twitter is going to be all things to all people.
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Moomintroll



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:07 pm Reply with quote
sykoeent wrote:
mglittlerobin wrote:

I feel insulted by this statement, I borrow Bleach manga from the library all the time, does that make me a moocher? No, because someone still paid for that copy, so the author still received money from a sale of his book. If this statement were true, there would be a lot of anime and manga moochers who borrow from their friends, the library Nettflix, etc. I also review Bleach and earn money from reviews, which I use to buy Bleach anime, am I a moocher fan of Bleach or any other manga I borrow from the library, NO.

Ugh... it actually sort of does...
"I feel insulted by this statement, I borrow Bleach manga from the library all the time, does that make me a moocher? No, because someone still paid for that copy, so the author still received money from a sale of his book."
and yes
"there would be a lot of anime and manga moochers who borrow from their friends"


I've agreed with most of your posts, sykoeent and I'm entirely on your side in the great, never-ending piracy debate but the above is just silly.

Putting aside the fact that manga publishers are highly supportive of libraries and that they (and most other publishers for that matter) would be hurting a lot worse without library purchases (see my posts, among others, in this thread for elaboration on that point) it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that somebody borrowing from a library is "mooching" given that the patrons of the library are the very people who purchased, via their taxes, the books they're borrowing.

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.
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sykoeent



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Moomintroll wrote:

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.

I think that's why I had trouble calling it "mooching" in that situation... I think there should be another term for it... I just feel that, in a way it sort of is like "mooching"... but with a penalty...

And I thought this thread was closed?
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:24 pm Reply with quote
sykoeent wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.

I think that's why I had trouble calling it "mooching" in that situation... I think there should be another term for it... I just feel that, in a way it sort of is like "mooching"... but with a penalty...

And I thought this thread was closed?


Actually, if the moocher is skilled enough to get their friend to buy more manga than they would otherwise buy, they're a benefit to the market. A fine supporting fan that, if they are getting manga bought beyond their purchasing power.

Library patrons are indirectly benefiting the market in exactly the same way ~ titles that circulate heavily persuade the library to buy more stuff like that, titles that circulate very heavily persuade the library to buy additional copies of that same title. Fine supporting fans, those library patrons.

Five people forming a manga club and pooling their money to get a wider variety of manga than they could otherwise get is also a benefit to the market. Most excellent supporting fans.

Hell, if the only way you can support the market is to watch ad-streams on Hulu and on a week delay at Crunchy, and read (the trickle of) legit online market on ad-supported sites ... then got on social networks and spread the world about the availability of legit material available online. You'll be a wonderful supporting fan. Two Thumbs Up.

So all of these are "supporting fans". Those people that spend $400 or $1,000 on manga or anime in a year, we'll all agree to call them "Super Duper Prime Top Shelf Boss Gold Star Supporting Fans". And bow if meeting them in person. I'd say "God bless them", but if God is an anime and manga fan, she already does.

Hey, I bet Zac is a Super Duper Prime Top Shelf Boss Gold Star Supporting Fan, I wonder if he'll close the thread on that note.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:35 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:

OK, sorry, you said something false and, as you later revealed, you knew perfectly well that you only knew for sure it was true for you, and had no idea whether or not it was true in general.

Course, that's a mouthful. Bluffing about something being true when you have no basis for knowing is something I'll normally call a "lie" for short.


I didn't bluff about anything. I clarified prior statements that you misrepresented. I thought you merely misunderstood those statements to mean what I didn't intend, but it appears that you may be doing this on purpose. That obviously undermines any discussion we could have.

To go back to my original statement once again:
"Pirates are commonly also purchasers. "
This says commonly, not most. I never intended to imply most, and yet you insist that this is what I meant in saying that I bluffed by using myself as example of what is done by most who download.

Now, if you are challenging my assertion that it's common, then maybe you have a point if we agree on what the term means. By common I meant that it's "not unusual." I meant that "many who pirate do buy."

I knew people who did it and I continue to use forums for the purpose of downloading and have asked and read what they do so I have some idea that they did buy, not merely knowing that it's me that acts that way.

I'd point you to something like this though, which is a bit more generic and not at some pirate website: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/03/6418.ars

Quote:

... millions of people rarely fall into two nice neat extreme groups. There's also (3) Don't Know (4) Don't Care as long as they get their entertainment (5) Conned by the BS peddled by piracy defenders ...

My statement was a simplification because it was entirely unnecessary to establish more groups for my argument. I'd also admit that "callous haters" follows the general tone of these types of conversations. Given the ill wishes I don't think that's unwarranted.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:24 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
To go back to my original statement once again:
"Pirates are commonly also purchasers. "


I have no evidence that fansubbers and scanlators buy any less product than they have ever done. Of course, while buying the stuff does good, it is massively outweighed by the piracy itself.

And I have yet to see any evidence that the illegal uploaders and other volunteers at leech streaming and manga viewing sites, DVD rippers, and all the other actual pirates buy any more or less stuff than their peers viewing the sites. Simple comparison of the growth of viewership to the changes in the actual market proves that the its uncommon for viewers of these sites to buy much stuff.

But over and above that, if Pirates were similar in number to those consuming their bootlegs, this issue would matter. Since hundreds of pirates mean thousands or millions of bootleg copies consumed, the consumption habits of the pirates themselves is basically rounding error on the scales, far, far less on average than the penny per view that legit ad streams generate.

So I apologize for thoughtlessly wandering into that line of argument, which is ultimately irrelevant to the damage done by pirates.
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mglittlerobin



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 1070
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:28 pm Reply with quote
As a new manga consumer, I prefer not to buy series that are extremely long, as in over thirty volumes long, so that's why I do not buy Bleach or Naruto, and because it's available at my local library and I can get it whenever I want for free legally, I don't feel obligated to buy it, I like the anime better, because I like watching it on TV more. But I will buy manga if I know I like it and I will collect the volumes for the series I like. I might even buy a Death Note volume to help my library replace the one in the system that went missing, they never got it back and can't finish borrowing Death Note because volume four is missing. I would buy it and donate it because that manga is something I wouldn't want to keep, but wouldn't mind reading once through.
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hikaru004



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2306
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:01 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
hikaru004 wrote:
I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude.


... and quite expressive. Don't forget the clarity with which they made their feelings known.

Again, its the creators of Black Lagoon and Hellsing we are talking about here. If they were afraid of putting anything in front of the public that was anything but elegant and refined ... uh, that would lead readers of Black Lagoon and Hellsing up a creek without a manga.

The author of Black Butler phrased it much more prettily, and people still abused her for it in these forums.


It really doesn't matter how expressive their words were. Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. Not descend to the level of the posters taunting them with the fact that their works are being posted online.
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mrsatan



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 786
Location: Olympia, WA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:09 pm Reply with quote
hikaru004 wrote:
It really doesn't matter how expressive their words were. Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. Not descend to the level of the posters taunting them with the fact that their works are being posted online.


Yep. And if it was a "trendy" disease like AIDS or breast cancer, people would be calling for their heads.

But I wonder what kind of idiot downloads manga/anime and then goes and tells the creator about it?

Is it OK if I'm against all parties involved? They all seem a insensitive.
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