Forum - View topicShelf Life - Junjo Come Here
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Ian K
 Posts: 250 |
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Casshern is a show I have mixed feelings about, and I can definitely see where Erin is coming from . . . but in the end I found more to like than to dislike.
The titular character is underdeveloped and angsty, and probably the worst thing about the show. However, I liked WATCHING ROBOTS WAIT FOR DEATH. Because it's not really about robots. It's about people, and how they cope with their own mortality, and I thought Sins could be downright brilliant in portraying this. Depressing? Sure. Relevant to our lives? Absolutely. I got a weird feeling from the backgrounds. It's like they wanted to portray a desolate world, but still wanted it to look interesting, so they took a landscape that wouldn't look out of place on Mars, and put odd color filters over it. Sometimes it worked, but most of the time it just looked odd. However, when one also considers the pleasingly (imo) retro character designs and the excellent fight scenes, I wouldn't say the show looks 'cheap'. At least, not the first half. Unfortunately, the budget does noticeably decrease in the second half (the fights are less impressive, and there's more re-used animation), and I felt it didn't shift gears from an episodic structure to a continuing storyline as well as it could've. This dip in quality wasn't so pronounced that I stopped enjoying the show, though. By the way, I like Erin's column just the way it is. If she had the same opinions as everyone else, we wouldn't have these epic discussions, would we? Last edited by Ian K on Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8459 Location: Penguinopolis |
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All this butthurt over a throw-away religious joke. Turn the other cheek.
I'm more annoyed that somehow bleakness in Casshern Sins is seen as bad. It's not a forced bleakness: the show is as bleak as the premise and story supports. But then, some of my favorite anime are depressing. Like Zeta Gundam. Also, please don't link to the DB wiki. It's got so much inaccurate information. |
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Smart Chick
 Posts: 26 Location: Corona, CA |
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Casshern Sins was not made for your typical otaku audience. You don’t necessarily have to be in an “I hate humanity” or self-loathing moment to assimilate into Casshern Sins but if that gets you to better understand or enjoy the show then get into that mood before you watch it. You just have to have a different perspective from the usual type of shows being released every season. Casshern sins has an incredibly slow pace, which will turn many viewers off.
The point of Casshern’s amnesia is not explained until the end of the series spoiler[where his amnesia is symbolic for his rebirth into a new being. Unlike in other media where the main focus is to retain oneself again. Casshern has evolved and thus loses his previous life where he eventually comes to accept the terms and moves on. ] The robots obsession over death is not as simplified if understood. These robots were granted immortality and once the ruin began have de-evolved into facing mortality. spoiler[The importance of the robots facing mortality gives meaning to their lives. Each robot’s desperation to complete a certain task before their death makes everything that much more immediate and important rather than before where they knew they had plenty of time to complete their task. Upon completion of their task they experience hope, elation and fulfillment leading to them accepting their eventual path to death evolving these particular robots to a greater state of being.] The robots wanting to consume Casshern’s body do not want to face their mortality and thus lust after Casshern’s immortality demeaning their very existence. Here is the definition of communion - an act or instance of sharing. A Christian sacrament in which consecrated bread and wine are consumed as memorials of Christ's death or as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and communicant or as the body and blood of Christ. I just don’t think that was the right comparison to make. Casshern is not a suicidal protagonist in fact he’s the opposite. spoiler[It isn’t until Casshern meets Akoes does he stop running from his sin and fights against his fate of being a grim reaper. By not fighting against the robots and giving up he’s saving life rather than taking. Casshern only kills the robots that do not accept their mortality. These robots are trying to extinguish life by trying to kill robots like Ringo and Janice. That is why Casshern gives them the opportunity to withdraw and live, which they don’t giving Casshern no choice but to kill them.] Casshern Sins backgrounds and general use of color remains bleak in the beginning but as you move along the series the use of colors increases especially at the end. I don’t think the purpose of the animation is necessarily budget saving. It only makes sense that everything looks bleak and colorless in a post apocalyptic world. After all we associate death with grays, browns and black and life with color. spoiler[And at the end we do see the world filled with life and color.] If there had been color in the beginning I feel that the ambiance of the show would have felt off and ruined it. It’s completely understandable why you didn’t like the show especially since I can’t recommend it to anyone I know. Casshern sins is not perfection but with the recent downturn of anime it looks pretty darn good. I think its worthy of at least a rental if you can swallow the bleakness, slow pace and understand the deeper meaning of the series. Last edited by Smart Chick on Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian K
Posts: 250 |
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Actually, there were times when Casshern wanted to die, and I felt that one of the main weaknesses in the show was that in a few episodes he vacillated between a desire for death and determination to keep living without a convincing explanation for the change of heart. |
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wandering-dreamer
 Posts: 1733 |
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Aw, I liked Casshern Sins as well (man, never knew it actually had a good sized following) and it may have been that it was my "I'm an emo teenager" anime so I liked all the dark elements in it. I did find it really slow at first but as the characters started to change (so I suppose around the halfway point) I got really interested in them and what was going to happen to everyone in such a depressing world.
Anyway, and I'm going to be yet another person who thinks that the series didn't look low budget at all. Of course I was staring more at the action than anything but that looked pretty nice to my untrained eyes. |
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GWOtaku
 Posts: 678 |
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Oh yeah, it's not bad in and of itself, I agree. I can definitely sympathize with those who don't want to be presented with that kind of atmosphere, though, especially when it's relentlessly portrayed. I've seen Zeta and to me even that is light fare compared against Casshern. Though the award for most depressing story in a series may have to go to Saikano... |
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 598 |
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If something hits all of my personal pet peeves, I can still concede that it might be Shelf Worthy. For example, I've heard Jin-Roh is incredibly depressing. I haven't watched it yet, but I've also heard it's very highly regarded. I intend to see it for sure. Sky Crawlers was depressing and moody with suicidal characters and I gave that a Shelf Worthy last week. Even though I don't like depressing things, a good story that entertains me (like Sky Crawlers) ought to be able to shake through all of my defenses. If I had found Casshern Sins entertaining in the least, or worthwhile in some capacity, I would have told you so, despite all the amnesia and depression.
Yeah, that would be like comparing the actors who have played Doctor Who... oh wait...!
I lolled. |
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Flame-G102
 Posts: 104 |
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Casshern Sins? a bad anime?
HAHAHAHAHA. Somehow, after reading through the thread, I feel like I must be the ONLY person who WASNT depressed by Sins. (FACT: The only anime that has EVER actually managed to depress me, was Devil Lady) In fact, i just took it in stride. I mean, it was filed to the top with action and well thought out character interaction- I was particularly fond of Shinigami Dune... So suddenly- having a drab color pallete in a post apocalyptic world is low budget? I suppose you would prefer to see colorful flowers and blue sunny skies? yes, thats it. the next Post apocalyptic world should look like paradise instead. otherwise, it must be low budget! GREAT reasoning! Casshern Sins not for all? maybe. If only because the populace has gotten too used to your generic MOE MOE KYUN KAWAII DESUNE-SAMAAA~ or the just plain the generic anime that comes out of Japan nowadays, which while some may be good, is either still not great, or still, comes with the load of other animes. Sins makes you think. it makes you READ and have to understand what those subtitles are saying. (or what the dub is saying, your choice-) it gets deep at times, when there isnt just Casshern killing things going on. The purpose of that suicidal moment he had once or twice, is actually pretty well founded too. and its not suicidal more than it is "for the better". In his eyes- If he truly is the cause of the ruin and the cause that the world is the way it is- Then perhaps it would be best to die and atone for what he has done? After all, all he is good for is killing. Enemies that cross his path end up dead, killed by him. When provoked, his actions are no longer in his control, as we see when his eyes glow and he just goes plain batshit and starts killing everything around him. Sometimes, even hurting or attempting to hurt innocents. its only until he realizes that his existence CAN be used for good, for protecting others, and basically making sure that the world does not forget that death is a part of life- does he regain his senses a bit and get on with his life. If anything, I would recommend a watch through before anything. at least 2-3 episodes. Then decide if you want to rent the rest, drop it, or buy it. But low budget, and low quality, perishable? what. |
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Smart Chick
Posts: 26 Location: Corona, CA |
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I felt that the rushed ending was its greatest weakness since they tired to tie everything up in the last couple episodes. I had to watch the last episode again to understand the full extent of what was going on. spoiler[Plus we never find out what happened to that special rainbow rock.] spoiler[Well Casshern was symbolic for the grim reaper and it isn't until he meets all the robots along the way who "live" does he change his mind about dying and decides to live to protect them especially Lyuze and Ringo. Casshern believed his death would lead to the salvation of the robots and he would be forgiven of his sin. Thus his contemplation of dying or living.] I guess I didn't care as much for his indecisiveness of living or dying to find it as a weakness. Last edited by Smart Chick on Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shichimi
 Posts: 349 |
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Fair enough. I guess my original post wasn't that well worded; I certainly didn't mean to imply that you can't be impartial, I just felt that for this show I would have liked to have seen more of your reasoning.
Hah! Touche. And everyone knows Eccleston is the best 'New Who' |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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It might matter more to the Japanese, but Kon not making the money that Miyazaki has made sort of goes with the maverick indie filmmaker we have in the west. There are any number of wonderful movies that make no money that are far more worthy than the blockbuster Hollywood flick of the year, but the makers know they are sacrificing a fat check to remain true to their vision.
And then there are the really crazy guys who do insane stuff almost as though they're TRYING to drive the audience away.
As a teen, I took seminary for 3 or 4 yrs of high school. One year was actual Mormon History so I believe that was the year we got credit for (but I believe it was elective) & yeah, you don't think we didn't get regular doses of Mormons tortured & killed for their faith to back up how rotten & evil the "other" christians were? I found that in Wiki by looking for "Extermination Proclamation" which I had been taught in high school as having been part of very, very much a dark period of US history. There are errors in the ANN encyclopedia. Is that a valid reason for discounting all of it? On the other hand, I find it interesting to see our religions & mythology regurgitated by the Japanese in manga & anime. Particularly the older stuff-pre-2000. It almost seems as though they identify with the devils (Go Nagai's Devilman. Gokudo) which makes sense if one considers they've probably had at least a few of the hellfire & brimstone types telling them they're all burning in hell for believing their native religion. In many ways it's like the blind men & the elephant-certain things stand out, while others pass under their radar, so I'm always looking for what might be the ideas behind the various mythologies of a title. It makes complete sense Ms. Finnegan perceives the title from where it hits her. I thought she made it fairly clear she didn't care much for the aspects she didn't like so anyone is free to ignore the entire review. I loved Kikaider, but didn't care as much (though I did like it) the Skull Man 21st century take. I liked Boogiepop, but Lain seemed a bit too caught up in the idea. Tehxnolize was just less than it should have been. If you LIKE apocalyptic stuff, great. Not everyone likes a steady diet to the point they will praise every one released. I don't get zombies any more than I get moe. Once in awhile, sure. I loved Return of the Living Dead. I wish Dark Horse would take another stab releasing 3X3 Eyes. ZOmbieland had its moments, but overall, it's ZOMBIES-mindless things that overwhelm by sheer numbers. Not like they can plot to get one thru some ingenious trick, yet there are scores of zombie fans now. I have only a vague memory of the Kusao title as being pretty average, disposable shonen time-filler. I'm sure I have the 4 eps folded into one feature mentioned in the encyclopedia, but it really didn't seem as stand-out as the one or 2 eps of Battle Angel Alita I had on VHS. Between the review, my memory of it as nothing all that much, & the re-do on Skullman (interesting, but not as wonderful as I hoped on the vision of the piece), I might wait for the full set. It might be interesting to se this one compared to the old one, but I suppose all I can hope for is the old one giving me a basic frame for Sins I just remembered Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner-my daughter loving it to death & a major plot point was devouring people. |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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Well the Catholicism thing isn't an inaccurate comparison since some denominations truly believe that piece of bread does become the flesh of the lord in their mouths but it's always one of those connection of points situations where, yes that is the point of it or idea of it but the explanation or reasoning behind to it is holds importance too. So connecting the dots between the cannibalistic tendencies in the show and the cannibalism in Catholicism isn't wrong but its too much of a jump that doesn't read well. Not one of those where you can just summarize the idea behind it. Or one of those jokes where everyone goes "oooh... (yeah a little funny) but no dude. No." jokes.
But at the same time I found erin's comment or comparison a very accurate too. Just that the call out was a bit unnecessary and maybe a tiny bit mean spirited or at least non-flattering. (Just for fairness and comparison sake though, I think we should make a random non-flattering race but not really racist comment to even things out in the next article and see how well that goes.) The robots are drawn to the rumor about eating Casshern to the point of being some kind of twisted religious devotion to the idea of it which I thought was very interesting dynamic like Smart Chick points out and at the least, a good excuse for fights. Just a really interesting interpretation or parallel. Nothing drastically new to older fans but still a something nice if your not tired of it or a new fan if the dower mood doesn't push you away.
I don't thinking I'm really confusing it. Granted I didn't work in animation like you have so my level of understanding is no where near yours, but I studied it the same when I was a illustration/time arts (2D-3D animation) major back in school before my 3 semester of technical drafting courses got me my current job during my last year of college. So its not purely from a fanboyish stance either. Yes, the background is fairly bare and sparse but looking pretty isn't its only job either. Backgrounds and color work to set up mood and ambiance for a show too and on those merits, the artistic value caught my attention more then the it being the budgeting or low budget friendly technique that it was. Same thing with the dialog and storyboarding. But obviously that's where are opinion differs. I thought it was done and used well so the term "budget" doesn't enter my vocabulary as it seems negative even if it is factually accurate. I personally got drawn into the mood it was trying to set. But "budget" could mean something different to you or not as negative as it is to me or you really did think it looked bad so I don't know. But its still the difference of a professional point of view and that of an non-professional view so I see where your coming from, I just don't agree with it and didn't get the same reaction from it all. But I'm still curious (sincerely, not in snarky kind of way), you like GiTS; so when you watched GiTS did the budget friendly stuff stick out or did the series just do a better job making you believe or get caught up in its worlds and not notice them as much? Or do you think you just generally notice it more because you've been on that side of the industry? Or maybe I just have lower standards where as long as its not "shonen series budget" level, I'm okay with it... well... that might be too low... Let's go with Gundam level of budget friendly. I also pointed out Bakemonogatari (I think fansub only at this point) because has a high artistic quality too but its also a bit heavy with the dialog and budget friendly stuff too. Good deep series, funny, different, very pretty, and I thought it was done really well outside of a bit of randomness to it. Just to get some kind of mental gauge is all. But I guess you can't really review that... Oh! Beck might be a good series to gauge with! Wow, I wrote alot. Sorry. |
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CareyGrant
Posts: 453 |
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*weeps comically* Too Soon! I miss David Tennant!
True. Re: Yaoi: It's only rape the first time... maybe. Ok, not being a fan of yaoi or non-con (in any genre), I can't help but wonder what the attraction is (with non-con) or what function the non-con serves in yaoi and why it seems so pervasive. Is it just titillation for the female fans? Does yaoi have a gay male following and if so, what might their thoughts be on yaoi's rapey-ness? Is it just a (formulaic) plot device in yaoi, kinda like what we see in harems, i.e. a completely boring, milquetoast guy suddenly surrounded (by some weak plot device) by a gaggle of impossibly hot girls who're all hot for him now? |
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mimosa_usagi
 Posts: 85 Location: New York |
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Unfortunately this is what happens when someone has to follow a predecessor. I personally really liked Bamboos style. I like Erin's writing style but I am less likely to follow her recommendations because Erin and I clearly have very different tastes. For example I have far less pet peeves. But just because someone has complaints douse not mean that we are all discounting her completely. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Transubstantiation is a doctrine stating that what is eaten at Communion is the actual flesh/body of Christ and what is drunk is the actual blood of Christ. So I see nothing wrong with Erin's comment.
Anyway, not a fan of any of these to be honest. I gave Casshern a shot, but I couldn't last past 3 episodes. It's just not for me. Also, can't say I enjoy the bit of double standard going on with Junjou. You state that Misaki is a college student when you should know full well that he's a high school student (since he's studying for his entrance exams). I wonder what you would think of the show if it were a 28 year old male and an 18 year old female? |
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