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YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 1048
Location: New York
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:18 am Reply with quote
The person who wrote in about buying the DVDs and still watching fansubs anyway is somewhat strange to me.

I don't see too much different between actual subs and fansubs, other than that the fansubs use different sized fonts or different style fonts. I could also give them credit for obsessively subtitling everything. I wish a fansubber was on Moyashimon, because someone thought Americans can read Japanese! I don't disregard their passion and the work they put into subbing, but I don't care all that much if they're "working" or not. 5 to ten years ago I would have cared more.


Also, I skimmed through the comments (fansubbing must be either tied or #2 to moe in terms of popular subjects) and people still have that "It must be day and date, or close to it!" mentality. I wonder why people feel that this is necessary. Is it a competition? Is it a feeling that if we get the anime on the same day as Japan, we are more Japanese for getting that privilege? Anime doesn't rot. If it's good live, it's good a week later.

Maybe it's because others are watching it quicker through fansubs and you want to take part in the virtual water cooler talk?
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8179
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:38 am Reply with quote
Sunday Silence wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
Protip #3: There are exceptions to every law. Even murder is justifiable in some cases.


Like buying used/pre-owned items. I'm still technically buying the legit goods, just the money is not going into the pockets of the people that ruined my perception of them in the first place.
That's totally legal as you are in effect only transacting on one single unit purchased from an authorised distributor, and once you buy something you then become that something's authorised distributor instead, but only of that single unit. It becomes illegal when someone makes copies of that single unit and sells, or just gives those away instead. Wink
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bob51



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:21 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:


bob51 wrote:
Yeah that's mainly the problem, I don't. I wish to support parts of it, not the entirety of it, I don't see why I would want the survival of something that I don't appreciate.


But its an industry. In order to have the works that you enjoy, there needs to be a certain ability to produce, and that cannot be created from scratch for each individual series. Its a group activity making an anime, and draws on a lot of specialized skills.

Wanting to support "only" the specific series you like is like wanting to step off the roof without falling ... just wanting it does not mean its possible for it to happen. You only get an industry able to deliver the series that you like if enough other people support a broad enough variety of anime to keep the industry going.


You know, thinking about it correctly, even if I wanted to support a show I liked, most of the money probably goes to the studio and not the author, kinda makes me want to support it even less. But you know, every individual series has it's own individual cast, it's not because the cast that made series X a while ago that series Y will die, if anything more people will only have to turn to that show now.

You're assuming that there is nothing after the roof. That was childish and didn't make sense uh? That's how what you said felt to me. If I ever would be "supporting" the industry, I'm not thinking of the animators editors etc, I don't care about the company at all, the only person I would want to thank is the author of the original work, everyone else is disposable, well maybe not the director, him too, but most of the money doesn't go to them, isn't that how it works for most businesses?
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5898
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:56 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
CCSYueh wrote:
My stance has been all along breaking the law in pursuit of a HOBBY doesn't make breaking the law ok.


Okay, I get that this is your stance. But can you explain why? In what sense is it 'not okay'?

Just to recap, my argument is: In some cases, Piracy is harmless and has no ill effects on others. Therefore, in these cases, it is okay to pirate. Your response seems to be: Regardless of your reasons or justifications, it is still illegal and therefore not okay. My follow up question then is: Why? Why isn't it okay to break the law if you're not hurting anything?

I realize we're also in disagreement as to whether piracy is ever in fact harmless and I'll address that in a moment. You seem to be saying that it would not be okay even if it was though and therefore I'd appreciate if you could at least assume hypothetically that it is for an moment and answer the above question as such.


So if you think Piracy is harmless, does that mean what the Somali pirate is doing is harmless? So applying your logic, it's harmless to:

-rob a bank as long as no innocent people get kill or injure. That's a harmless crime, right?
-commit a school shooting because you're a victim of bullying and the school administrator and teacher didn't stop the bullying. Kill the bullies as long as no innocent people get hurt or kill. That's harmless because only bullies derserve to be punished not innocent people, right?
-shoplift item from store

back on topic: Interesting Answerman article, and I really like it a lot.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 963
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:02 am Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:


So if you think Piracy is harmless, does that mean what the Somali pirate is doing is harmless?

maybe you should go back and reread the second line of his post, heres a hint, its the one that you made bold, but just for arguments sake:
Quote:
Just to recap, my argument is: IN SOME CASES, Piracy is harmless and has no ill effects on others.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5898
Location: Cypress, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:07 am Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:
mdo7 wrote:


So if you think Piracy is harmless, does that mean what the Somali pirate is doing is harmless?

maybe you should go back and reread the second line of his post, heres a hint, its the one that you made bold, but just for arguments sake:
Quote:
Just to recap, my argument is: IN SOME CASES, Piracy is harmless and has no ill effects on others.


I like to play his with ikillchicken logic. So yeah I have to maybe throw in the Somali pirate for a good reason which I can't say on here.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:20 pm Reply with quote
YotaruVegeta wrote:
Also, I skimmed through the comments (fansubbing must be either tied or #2 to moe in terms of popular subjects) and people still have that "It must be day and date, or close to it!" mentality. I wonder why people feel that this is necessary. Is it a competition? Is it a feeling that if we get the anime on the same day as Japan, we are more Japanese for getting that privilege? Anime doesn't rot. If it's good live, it's good a week later.

Maybe it's because others are watching it quicker through fansubs and you want to take part in the virtual water cooler talk?


I think that's it precisely. Not only participate, but just follow ~ "hey, that's a spoiler!".

DB has written about how their download base grew, and they noticed that when they started getting subs out at about the same time as speedsubbers, their download figures jumped. For all the shouting by DB fanbois that the quality of their subs could never be matched by Viz Media ... clearly over half of the downloads were from "must have it fast" mentality viewers. And of course a big part of why the leech streaming sites engage in illegal uploads rather than just skimming what it already out there is to ensure that they have the big series up at about the same time as everyone else.

Of course, if the water cooler was a crowd that only watches by legit means, then whether that is an hour after the first Japanese broadcast, an hour after an Animax airing (as FMA:Brotherhood was), or three years later wouldn't really matter.
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Zin5ki
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:35 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
Since UK rights holders do not have a Hulu to work with, there's no basis for automatically presuming that if they have the right they would be streaming the shows themselves ... especially given the weak streaming ad market in the UK, they may not want be in a position to wear the costs of starting up a low-traffic streaming site of their own.

This is a substantial point. I must note that it seems to support the hypothesis that the plausibility of streaming is restricted by the monetary resources of the companies who hold the rights to do so, amongst other things.

Fortunately enough, the industry insider has duly responded to my question. Apparently, his company were not approached for the sub-licence rights to the series they release on DVD over here. He tells me that they have something planned for the future, however.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:32 pm Reply with quote
bob51 wrote:
You know, thinking about it correctly, even if I wanted to support a show I liked, most of the money probably goes to the studio and not the author, kinda makes me want to support it even less.


Every anime is a group effort. If you appreciated an anime, you appreciated the combined work of writers, directors, animators, voice actors, sound designers, musicians and more.

And money going to "the studio" is dominated by money going to pay people to do those things.

Physical publications of all sorts (books, DVD's comics, etc.) often deliver 10% to 20% income to the creators and the bulk goes to the physical production and distribution. So if you feel an emotional need to deny a living to everyone else connected with the industry, over and above the studios themselves, its the subscription streaming sites that deliver the largest fraction of their gross revenue back to the studios that create the work.

Zin5ki wrote:
Fortunately enough, the industry insider has duly responded to my question. Apparently, his company were not approached for the sub-licence rights to the series they release on DVD over here. He tells me that they have something planned for the future, however.


That suggests that the next time Crunchyroll does an anime member survey (and shinji has said in a recent ANNCast that he reads each and every one), any UK members remind them that they have seven R1-only series that are also licensed by different distributors in the UK, and Crunchyroll needs to approach them about rights.

I can understand if Crunchyroll has focused on expanding region rights for simulcasts, but seeming to have cracked that nut with their simulcasts, at least for Northern Europe, an increase in the coverage of their back catalog is something to pay attention to.

And, after all, after Tai Seng and TVB got into a tussle whether shows could be streamed on Crunchyroll, Crunchyroll was happy to do the work of setting up a streaming site for Tai Seng ... developing improved relationships with R2/UK distributors could lead to more paying work on that front as well.
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bob51



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:49 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
bob51 wrote:
You know, thinking about it correctly, even if I wanted to support a show I liked, most of the money probably goes to the studio and not the author, kinda makes me want to support it even less.


Every anime is a group effort. If you appreciated an anime, you appreciated the combined work of writers, directors, animators, voice actors, sound designers, musicians and more.

And money going to "the studio" is dominated by money going to pay people to do those things.

Physical publications of all sorts (books, DVD's comics, etc.) often deliver 10% to 20% income to the creators and the bulk goes to the physical production and distribution. So if you feel an emotional need to deny a living to everyone else connected with the industry, over and above the studios themselves, its the subscription streaming sites that deliver the largest fraction of their gross revenue back to the studios that create the work.


That is a good point, yes, and I'm sure the company does a good job distributing, the small fraction allocated they people actually working, representatively of their importance in the work. And honestly, I refuse to believe that most of the money goes to them. Show me some numbers, sources.

And I do feel like denying them a living if I judge their creations to be, you know, bad, or average honestly, if it doesn't go more than that, if I don't get excited by it at all, I don't see why they would deserve my money.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:43 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
I like to play his with ikillchicken logic. So yeah I have to maybe throw in the Somali pirate for a good reason which I can't say on here.


I know you're capable of speaking coherent English. I've seen you do so in other topics. Therefore, I know you understand that piracy has multiple meanings and understand that I'm referring to the copyright infringement kind of piracy only. So stop feigning ignorance and derailing the conversation.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:56 am Reply with quote
bob51 wrote:
That is a good point, yes, and I'm sure the company does a good job distributing, the small fraction allocated they people actually working, representatively of their importance in the work.


Huh?

Quote:
And honestly, I refuse to believe that most of the money goes to them. Show me some numbers, sources.


I've seen one claim it directly. It'd be unlikely they would lie about that, since if they do the information will slip out someday.

I know that Hulu pays 70% to the rights owner for its big content partners, and this source says they average 60% to 65%, but smaller content providers may go down as low as 50:50. The anime share between the license holder and the original rights owner is not disclosed there, for one thing because they are focusing on Hulu's overall business model and for another thing because that it independent of Hulu.

TheAnimeNetwork, I've seen no information on their online revenues, and they are privately held so there is no need for them to release that info.

So its by no means conclusive proof that would hold up in a court of law, but on the other hand if you just refuse to believe it barring irrefutable evidence to the contrary, the way you've set up the burden of proof shows that its \not really about evidence, its about something internal.

Quote:
And I do feel like denying them a living if I judge their creations to be, you know, bad, or average honestly, if it doesn't go more than that, if I don't get excited by it at all, I don't see why they would deserve my money.


But you can't just get "the exceptional stuff and only the exceptional stuff", the real world doesn't work like that. 90% of everything is crud ... unless the 100% is produced, including the 90% that's crud, the 10% that's good does not exist.

I'll presume that you are among the small minority in whatever field you are in to earn your money that is exceptional, but the majority of people are average ... for most people, if the source of their income imposed the same standard of having to be far above average, there'd be no money to spend on entertainment in the first place.
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rojse



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 234
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:57 am Reply with quote
In regards to the question about whether the abundance of thirteen-episode anime series over movies is a good or not, sometimes it can work quite well - the longer running time of a short series over a movie (five hours compared to two hours) can, in an ideal situation, serve to more fully explore the characters, story and ideas in a show that would be impossible in a movie. If a show is made merely to adhere to a running time of five hours when it it should have been either a movie or a twenty-six episode television series, the storytelling and characterisation in the show can suffer rather badly.
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rojse



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 234
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:12 am Reply with quote
For older anime releases that are not available in English on DVD, and are not likely to be released on DVD in English (example, "Legend of Galactic Heroes"), I see no problem with downloading that show to watch. I'm not depriving any English-territory company of money they would earn if I purchase that release, and importing an item from Japan that I can't understand does seem rather pointless.

If a show is available on DVD in English in some form (even if I have to import it), then I will import it. It's not difficult to find a cheap, region-free DVD player, and even if I can't support my local anime companies I'm supporting another company instead, even if it is in America.
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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:01 am Reply with quote
YotaruVegeta wrote:
The person who wrote in about buying the DVDs and still watching fansubs anyway is somewhat strange to me.

I don't see too much different between actual subs and fansubs, other than that the fansubs use different sized fonts or different style fonts. I


Some people still use both DVD's and fansubs for watching stuff, it just depends on the justification of watching fan subs. I still watch fansubs I won't lie about that, however I will only use them for something that does not have an R1 release (example Legend of the Galactic Heroes)

The big difference I see between fansubs and actual subs is that usually the actual subs have better translations. I've seen some horrible fan subs in terms of translations (the first one that comes to mind is one fan sub of Saint Seiya that I seen where they couldn't spell the characters name correctly and when someone would say die in Japanese it would get translated as "Go to Die")
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