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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:03 pm Reply with quote
We have to wait and see how well that experiment did.. because if a series like FMA: Brotherhood struggled than small niche anime series has a snowball's chance in an active volcano. Pretty much a "not in the foreseeable future" if this bit failed.

Even then right now the series in question would have to be something "big" for it to happen. A series that grabs you and slaps you in the face and says release me as quickly as you can. Admittedly very few anime series or even other media have that going for them honestly.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:13 pm Reply with quote
As someone who lives in New Zealand, official North American simulcasting is of no importance to me, and I have to rely on fansubbers/rippers in order to watch certain shows like Tatami Galaxy. Honestly, I think Americans are way too self-centred and inwardly-focused, and forget that there are a lot of English-speaking fans who don't have the option of watching hulu or FUNimation or whatever. I of course am an exception, since I don't actually live in the States.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:30 pm Reply with quote
But you should honestly be trying to support and build the industry in your area instead of making excuses. Come on if you have the will and believe that this anime thing is big enough in your area than act.

And you have an industry there.. I know you do.. I even know that there are some Japanese distributors going to your market directly. So stop making excuses and do something.

As that is what would be helpful to everyone than making the excuses you have been, to do nothing and support something that is an active negative to what you claim to enjoy.

So it's not in your area.. than actually try to make it happen legally than whining about how it is not is the short of it. Form companies, get involved in the processes of your distribution area. Build an actual customer base in your area.
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GhstDreamer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Agree with Answerman that fansubbers should invest more time into fansubbing titles that are on the fringe of fandom Instead of working on Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc. pick up Kindaichi Case Files, Ninku tv series, etc.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3453
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:47 pm Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
But you should honestly be trying to support and build the industry in your area instead of making excuses.

Um, when did dtm42 say that as a result of not being able to stream a show he (or she) somehow refuses to ever buy DVDs as a result? Basically what he (or she) is saying is that in order to preview something like Tatami Galaxy, the way everyone in America is able to do via Hulu and Funi's website, he (or she) has to resort to fansubs. That isn't an "excuse" not to buy the anime should it ever be licensed -- it's a justification for resorting to something one would otherwise not want to resort to for the sake of previews.

And expecting fans to start up their own companies just to license and stream anime in their regions??? The level of business acumen and startup money necessary to pull that off... come on, that's bloody ridiculous!

I'm not saying fansubs are always the solution; multiregion streaming is the best option, which sites like CR have provided in the past. But anyone who releases DVDs clings to the old region system, which is rapidly becoming obsolete in a digital age. I know there's not much Funimation can actually do to alter the region system, and I'm not demanding that they do so. Nor is just allowing free-for-all fansubbing on licensed material a good thing either. It's a quandary, and one that should be consciously addressed by the industry.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:14 am Reply with quote
Here list of companies where anime & manga can be bought in New Zealand: http://www.geekchixxx.com/animemanga/nz-shopping-guide/

Crunchyroll has been streaming to New Zealand and the aforementioned Madmen.

Every single licensor has been a fan or group of fans that have seen something in anime and decided to do something. They all said "We can sell this here" whether it was putting it on TV or online streaming or DVD and games... every single one of them had that start. To start a business the I have no money is something to overcome but it can be, whether you mortgage your house, sell your car or go to friends and family for loans, every business in existence found a way. And if you want to change and your idea is good than why are you waiting for others to do it?

As a fan if anime is not big in your area than you do what you can to make it big and that means making the market bigger, to convince others and yourself to buy anime, to literally make the market there be valuable in terms of money to make it worthwhile to go there. And if you think you know and can do better than find a way to license and do.

So you can't watch series "X" than do what you can to make your market valuable, or to find a way to get it legally. No show is that important that you have a right to infringe upon the rights of others, ever.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:22 am Reply with quote
Regarding the question of the week, I don't mean to be a dick but I don't really think it makes sense. The number of TV series has actually been decreasing since 2006, hitting the lowest point this year since 2002 at 104 titles. On the other hand, the number of movies and OVAs has remained more or less constant at roughly 80/year since the start of the decade. (81 this year). So we're actually now seeing nearly as many movies and OVAs as TV shows.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:22 am Reply with quote
I'm all for starting a business. Heck, right now I'm starting my first one with another guy and have four more on the drawing board. But hell if I'm going to go into Anime. I'm just not, okay? It would be an unprofitable labour of love.

I'm a guy.

That website doesn't have all of the locations that Anime and Manga are sold in New Zealand. I should know. According to my rather messy but fairly thorough records, I've spent about $14,000 dollars - NZ dollars, mind you - on Anime in the five years I've been a fan. I know most of the stores which sell it, at least in my home city.

Madman are okay, but they don't have decent streaming options.
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:49 am Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
Here list of companies where anime & manga can be bought in New Zealand: http://www.geekchixxx.com/animemanga/nz-shopping-guide/

Crunchyroll has been streaming to New Zealand and the aforementioned Madmen.

Every single licensor has been a fan or group of fans that have seen something in anime and decided to do something. They all said "We can sell this here" whether it was putting it on TV or online streaming or DVD and games... every single one of them had that start. To start a business the I have no money is something to overcome but it can be, whether you mortgage your house, sell your car or go to friends and family for loans, every business in existence found a way. And if you want to change and your idea is good than why are you waiting for others to do it?

As a fan if anime is not big in your area than you do what you can to make it big and that means making the market bigger, to convince others and yourself to buy anime, to literally make the market there be valuable in terms of money to make it worthwhile to go there. And if you think you know and can do better than find a way to license and do.

So you can't watch series "X" than do what you can to make your market valuable, or to find a way to get it legally. No show is that important that you have a right to infringe upon the rights of others, ever.



Great......another "fansubbing is evil" discussion. Except his issue wasn't that he was watching fansubs without supporting the industry-he explicitly stated that he bought the DVD's and read the manga. He just enjoyed some aspects of the fansubs more.

I really don't see a problem with what he's doing. He already owns the content that's been lisenced (the DVD, or Blu-Ray). He's not stealing it-he's just watching an alternate version. So there really shouldn't be a problem with what he's doing; it's no different than if he purchases the DVD and ripped it to his computer. Except that maybe the translations are different. Smile

.......you do know how unprofitable anime is out of Japan, right? I mean, there's a reason that Funi now releases everything in slimpacks with 2 discs with little to no extras with 13 episodes per pack. (compare that to the 50-70$ that Japanese anime fans pay for 2-3 eps per DVD). To demand someone who wants to watch something that's unavailable in their own country that they start their own anime company is a tad unrealistic.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:03 am Reply with quote
I did not say it was an exhaustive list but a list none the less, and helpful.

And your perception of the industry is why you are having trouble changing it, because you think it wouldn't work. And that's okay if you think that way however it doesn't mean you can turn around and complain when the changes you would like to see are not implemented (and perhaps they are being implemented just not at the speed you would like) because you are at the customer level. And right now fansubs are being viewed as competition and not a boon.

I appreciate that you buy.. but the thing is you don't need fansubs to buy a series or production at all. You have host of resources starting at the most basic of knowing yourself enough to know what you like in a series to sites like this, dedicated to giving an opinion on anime. There are several of them to get multiple view points to make an informed purchasing(or legal stream viewing) decision if the series in question doesn't do the aforementioned grabbing you and slapping you in the face and says "Buy me!".. metaphorically speaking..

But the thing is that you are enabling those who are not buying because of fansubs.. .you may buy but those who aren't are using the same methods and excuses. These fans will go to lengths to justify a non-purchase even for admitted series they claim to like. And when you consider the majority of anime to be small and niche made by small to mid-size companies (with a marginal few "big" ones) when you and others pirate that series it is a signal to those who are making the series that you want it to end, not continue. And we see it happening in Japan.. there is a gulf between experienced "old guard" and new comers let alone up an coming animators. They are giving up, because they probably, honestly feel the same way you do about the industry.. that it's not worth it.

Or when you see "fans" celebrate that they are able to distribute their fansubs while the company that made the series files for bankruptcy. They celebrate the death of companies, now I cannot guarantee success or a company to last for any amount of time, but it is always sad when another creative voice gets silenced, another outlet gone, and it is enraging to see so called "Fans" celebrate that kind of death as a creative spark gets dimmer or goes silent and stops taking us to new vistas and worlds or to explain our world and how we should be.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:10 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I know that I have said, at least on one occasion, that if it were not for fansubs, I never would have discovered my love of anime in the first place. I'm beginning to sound like your typical flake of the week, yes?


I am not saying this in the whole legal aspect debate-ok? I have stated we all have to go to hell out own way & be judged by whatever entity rules whatever blah blah.

But I am really tired of this argument. EXAMPLE-
"If I hadn't shoplifted those books from the bookstore I would never have discovered my love of Stephen King/Piers Anthony/whoever". Just because you "discover" a hobby thru criminal/grey area activity doesn't excuse it, ok? Because lots & lots of people discover anime & manga every day thru legal means.

So yeah, go ahead with whatever excuses you want to explain your downloading, but stop with the "If I didn't solicit prostitutes, I'd have never met my wife"
Of course I do work in law enforcement, so I hear sorry excuses from actual criminals every day at work. Just be honest about it.

I also don't buy the "I respect the dedication of the fansubbers". I've been around long enough to have actually been involved with fan groups back before VHS was common. We wrote fan-fics & monthly fanzines full of those & articles we'd write, etc. One group made the gigantic effort to compile an episode guide for the show which I still have & paid I believe $20 to cover the cost of printing. At the time, there was nothing similar in existance for this show.

If the makers of this show had asked any of the parties doing these fanletters to stop, I'm positive they would have done so. Fansubbers have been asked to stop & have not stopped. There is a difference between the fansubber era the ADV guys talk about on Devil Hunter Yohko & Megazone 23 & the ones throwing these episodes up on the net even after the creators have said not to do so.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:58 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
But I am really tired of this argument. EXAMPLE-
"If I hadn't shoplifted those books from the bookstore I would never have discovered my love of Stephen King/Piers Anthony/whoever". Just because you "discover" a hobby thru criminal/grey area activity doesn't excuse it, ok?


By pirating something instead of buying it, you may be costing the seller a sale. If it's something you'd never have even discovered without piracy though then obviously you're not costing them anything since you'd never have bought it either way. In fact, if by first pirating it you were led to buy it eventually then you've actually gained the seller a sale. Without piracy: No purchase. With piracy: Purchase. In this situation, at least in terms of effect, piracy has created a positive rather than a negative. That being the case, I don't see an ethical problem with it. If you do I would challenge you to offer a reason explaining why such an act with no negative effect on others should be considered wrong.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:15 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Without piracy: No purchase. With piracy: Purchase.

I have to assume the person posting this original question is in an area with legal access to anime & not Outer Mongolia where the only access is they fanbsubs since it is stated legal items are purchased
As I said, just because someone may meet, fall in love with, & marry a prostitute does not mean that person should have been soliciting a prostitute in the first place. Had this person lived a life where s/he did not participate in this behavior, there is every reason to believe that person may have found love with someone other than a former prostitute.
With solicitation-marriage happened, but also exposure to any number of dangerous situatiuons/diseases/etc. Without solicitation-maybe still manage to find love in a different setting.
ikillchicken wrote:
In this situation, at least in terms of effect, piracy has created a positive rather than a negative. That being the case, I don't see an ethical problem with it.

I'm not arguing ethics. Good intentions have paved the way to Hell for a long, long time. Each person has to decide what "laws" of society/god/whatever we believe we can live with ignoring.
ikillchicken wrote:
If you do I would challenge you to offer a reason explaining why such an act with no negative effect on others should be considered wrong.

No negative effect?
Not really. Right off the top I'll gamble this person is downloading from a known fansub site which means even though this person is buying stuff, there is likely another leech absorbing all the anime s/he can & never buying any.
IE-his "dealer" has a negative effect on my anime "neighborhood".

I work in law enforcement. I see dozens of drug users a week "only hurting themselves" as society sees it, only they're not working so they're draining society in one way or another. Many of them are on disability or trying to get it due to medical issues caused by years of drug use so the perception they're only hurting themselves is wrong because they're sucking up tax dollars that could be used for others.
Don't try the "victimless crime" thing on me.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:51 am Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
And your perception of the industry is why you are having trouble changing it, because you think it wouldn't work. And that's okay if you think that way however it doesn't mean you can turn around and complain when the changes you would like to see are not implemented (and perhaps they are being implemented just not at the speed you would like) because you are at the customer level. And right now fansubs are being viewed as competition and not a boon.


Unless you are secretly the CEO of an Anime licensor, then you have no foundation to talk to me like that. It's like berating a customer who buys an iPhone and then complains when it drops calls. Would you tell that customer to stop complaining and design a better phone? No reasonable person would. Why should the consumer have to do the same job - let alone a better one - as a group of established companies in an established industry?

The customer is not always right, but I, as a consumer, am certainly allowed to bellyache when my needs and requirements and not being catered to. The companies don't have to listen to me - no-one does, unless a law is being broken - but I still have that right to speak out. And it should be pretty obvious, but a company which listens to its customer base tends to do better than one which doesn't. Simple business practice.

So yeah, of course I'm pissed off at the way that the Anime industry is structured so that I have no way of legally watching North America-only streaming. Sure, I could use a proxy, but that is annoying to set up and still illegal. And of course I'm going to complain. Is me doing so going to change anything? Realistically, no. But that doesn't mean I should go out of my way to freaking set up a business in a low-profit market with a small customer base when the entire economy is stumbling.

Jeez.


Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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teh*darkness



Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 901
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:11 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
...stuff was said...

I can't stop noticing your avatar every time you post. I love RahXephon. Smile
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