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INTEREST: German Fans, Anime Firms Launch Anti-Piracy Group


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Fellistowe





PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:10 pm Reply with quote
J-Head wrote:
Not trying to be a jerk, but that kind of statement amounts to "if you don't agree with me, well you are just dumb/a bad human/whatever." I'm sure that isn't what you mean, but that sort of statement makes it less likely for someone to want to see your point.


As you surmised, I didn't mean it in the severity you amounted it to, but after reading many numerous and long posts on the fansub vs industry issue I just can't help getting more and more cynical about the amount of people who really do have a self entitlement complex.

From reading your post J-Head, you're more clued up than most, and you do understand and practice what I was trying to define; fans supporting and buying from the industry. I'm certainly not saying the current industry is perfect, far from it, but I do think it's still necessary even if it's to change into something far better.
For all the industry news I keep hearing, I still think it sounds like the balance is way off at the moment, and we need to get it back somehow.
Oh, and thanks for the bit of info about Japanese fans reverse importing Wink

thr wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding me.

Sorry, that wasn't directed personally, it was a figurative 'you'.

thr wrote:
The Anime industry in the western countries is chiefly built upon selling Anime

Half right, the full sentence should be "The Anime industry in the western countries is chiefly built upon selling Anime in your native language"
I can see where you're coming from with buying the merchandise ( I have several hundred dollars worth of figures myself), but to be honest do you want an industry focused on selling merchandise rather than DVDs?
I'd be worried about us having nothing more than the 200th incarnation of "moe moe kun" aimed at promoting those figures, rather than having some decent money spent on the likes of House of Five Leaves.
Plus, tbh I have a hard enough time encouraging the people at the anime clubs I know to even buy a $30 DVD set, never mind fork out for a $150 figure...
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reanimator





PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Wow, someone in Europe is taking an initiative. Awesome.

Again, I don't like seeing this pervading entitlement attitude that I'm seeing. Borrowing some of Answerman's words, what's up with this techno-communism? I wonder how can they make a living with working just a little.

Just because things are digital, it doesn't mean it can totally avoid labor cost and other underlying cost. Just because one can download easily, it doesn't mean that making animation is cheap or free. It's like you can download a book, but writing the book itself difficult.

There is no way in the world that you can de-commercialize something recent which takes lot of labor to make. Making animation is labor and time-intensive, regardless of medium.

The reason why the Japanese import DVDs are expensive because Japanese domestic market is very limited (mostly Kanto area and niche fans) and Japanese producers themselves pays for the inevitable production cost. Fansubs are not helping now because it doesn't generate Ad-revenue and draws too many indifferent viewers who always balks at Anime/manga merchandising.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:32 pm Reply with quote
thr wrote:
Licencors in foreign countries can only sell Anime and nothing else. But many Japanese shows are effectively just big campaigns for merchandise that can't be copied easily.

The Excalibur patch on its way to me from TRSI says otherwise, as do the Kururu & Gin patches I've sewed on my jeans & the Ulquiorra who's going on this weekend.
ADV dabbled in merchandising & I believe Bandai has some stuff here. Funi has some merchandise also.
thr wrote:
There is no positive fansubbing. Once it's out there, it's out there. That's the difference between Internet-enhanced fansubbing and fansubbing from the VHS era. IRC, Usenet, Torrents, Rapidshare and Co., it'll be always somewhere. Fansubbing means ignoring the Japanese creators' rights. It's as simple as that.

Thank you
The copies don't go away. FansubbersRUs can remove them, but Johnny downloader can just as easily throw them up again on his blog. In the middle of this decade, my daughter argued long & hard with friends downloading the licensed Gravitation under the "I'm a high school kid with no income so I can't afford to buy it, but I love it!!"
And I've seen bootlegs of the Geneon Fushigi Yugi with the English dub.
thr wrote:
And look no further than to a very high profile title to see how the Anime industry fails. Supposedly Bandai has bought the rights to K-ON! This show is now over one year old, K-ON!! is very soon finishing its run in Japan, yet there isn't anything to be heard about an impending release. I'm sure Licensing is a hard business, but either you can do it or you can't. If a popular show like this is delayed for more than a year, you simply can't believe that people have not watched it by other means. And if Anime is indeed more of a consumable than a collectible today, then you shouldn't expect that your sales will explode.

Bandai is very much a Japanese company. You have to get past that reverse import fear they brought up right off the bat at CCI this year. We're bound to the Japanese getting over their high priced business mode that they have operated under for years & move into a more reasonable pricing system, but we can't force them to do this.
Fellistowe wrote:
Then how come one of those arguments that keeps on being put forward for fansubs is that they help getting the title known, etc?
It seems to be the holy grail for fansub watchers that "they wouldn't have bought XXXX title if they hadn't watched the fansub first."
From personal experience, I would also agree with that statement; much of the $15k worth of anime I have wouldn't have been bought if I hadn't seen the series by some means first. No point having it on my hard drive when I own the DVD though.

So how do the rest of us who have never downloaded a single episode of anime manage to acquire anime collections? How do you decide what movie to see in a theater? What shows to watch on tv?
Fansubs have spoiled anime fans. So you drop $6 on a fricken volume of manga, figure out you don't like it & give it to a library or sell it at a yard sale. You read the back of the box. I read the first volume of SDK manga to help make a decision on the anime. I like Clamp, so I know I'll buy their stuff when it is licensed. I like Kikuchi, so anythign of his that's licensed, I'm going to read up on to see if I want to buy it. I like Obari & Akahori, so I read up on their projects so I know when they come over if I want them or not. (Still waiting on Kashimashi because I really don't think it's my style). OK, I have a huge collection of anime & manga, so I've often read the manga or seen the anime, but without downloads.

We seem to have gotten to a point where the anime fanbase expects to be able to view everythig before buying it which is very unrealistic in most normal business modes. One does not consume a meal & then say "It was bad, so I'm not paying you for it." If it was horrid, you might complain & get a free meal, but most likely you are paying for that meal no matter what
J-Head wrote:
I am currently in Japan, and I have learned two very important things in regard to the anime industry: 1) DVDs and any physical medium upon which anime can be bought are incredibly expensive. $60 for three episodes of SZS? Hell no. But, that leads me to 2) A surprising number of Japanese fans just buy and import the American releases (assuming Japanese audio is intact, as it mostly is nowdays) due to the significantly lessened cost for more.

Actually, it's a strange business mode Japan has gotten into that is insane. CDs are expensive also (I think I paid $36 for the last Buck Tick I picked up)
Yes, they need to move out of this "collectible item/expensive" mode we had back in the day of $80 VHS tapes & into the "priced to own" mode, but the outside world can't force them to.
J-Head wrote:
The market was flooded with bad titles in North America by companies who licensed anything and everything, because they had the resources to do so, and it came back to bit them when demand was not as expected (and the recession began to affect everyone).

Bad titles?
I bet I have some of your idea of "bad titles". How about more niche than other titles?
I frankly didn't mind paying Bandai Visual prices for titles I saw as not likely to have been brought over otherwise. Demon Prince Enma is incredible for a horror title. Geneon brought us wonderful horror titles & harem titles aimed at the gal audience.
J-Head wrote:
But this "WE MUST GIVE BACK" thing has easily become one of the most annoying attitudes in fandom.

Why?
J-Head wrote:
Furthermore, few fans simply do not "give back." I knew kids at a local library who read the Naruto manga every day on one of those annoying manga sites. Who knows if they bought it later? But I do know that they bought plushies, headbands, and keychains come convention time! I am not certain how much money companies make off of disc sales, but if they are anything like the music industry, it isn't much; most of the revenue comes from merch and licensing rights.

Licensed or bootleg product? There's a lot of bootleg at CCI. Those posters, a lot of the $10 cds, some of the plushies...
J-Head wrote:
ne little note relevant to the German thing, though: I have a friend who (I think) owns Cowboy Bebop on DVD as I do, but downloads the German dubbed version in an attempt to better her German. Now that's an odd situation to apply to any set of consumer morals.

How is it odd?
Your friend bought a dvd without German, so how is she "owed" the German version? My daughter bought Avatar on Bluray the day it came out with every intention of buying the special edition the director is planning to put out later this year. I was upset I splurged for the special edition of Dogma & a couple years later, another more special edition was released.
She buys the german edition, or she could also get Das Boat, M, or any number of German movies to practice her German on.
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J-Head



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:30 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Actually, it's a strange business mode Japan has gotten into that is insane. CDs are expensive also (I think I paid $36 for the last Buck Tick I picked up)
Yep. It's about the same price for the Macross 7 CDs I want.
CCSYeh wrote:

Bad titles?
I bet I have some of your idea of "bad titles". How about more niche than other titles?

No, I meant what I said. Since this isn't a discussion of show content, I meant "bad" in the sense that they didn't sell. Or, at least well enough to pay for themselves. Former ADV employees have confirmed this as not only an internal problem, but one faced by many companies, including Geneon. It hurt Funi too, but they invested in many series, the sales of which greatly buffered the hit. EDIT: An example of this would be the ADV release of the original Macross. I am so glad it happened, as a huge Macross fan, but they really lost a lot of money on it, because demand was super low in addition to the fact that a) they dubbed it (and paid for Mari Ijima to reprise her role in English, b) I don't think they promoted it enough, and c) the licensing fees for the music.
Quote:
J-Head wrote:
But this "WE MUST GIVE BACK" thing has easily become one of the most annoying attitudes in fandom.

Why?

Because it gives some 14-year old with a good amount of disposable income a reason to tell others that they are "killing" the industry. Also, there is no grave danger. If anime was to "go away," which it won't anytime soon (and even if it didn't, manga will be around, I can guarantee that), it would be due to far more than a portion of viewers not contributing money.
Quote:

Licensed or bootleg product? There's a lot of bootleg at CCI. Those posters, a lot of the $10 cds, some of the plushies...

I'm sure they bought a little bit of everything.
Quote:
How is it odd?
Your friend bought a dvd without German, so how is she "owed" the German version? My daughter bought Avatar on Bluray the day it came out with every intention of buying the special edition the director is planning to put out later this year. I was upset I splurged for the special edition of Dogma & a couple years later, another more special edition was released.
She buys the german edition, or she could also get Das Boat, M, or any number of German movies to practice her German on.

It's "odd" because it was meant to be mildly humorous. And no, she isn't "owed" it. But guess what? She has it. I don't feel that this is a point over which to extensively debate, but modern teachers, especially language teachers often use unlicensed materials in class. Right or wrong, it happens.

My whole point is that a) each person must do what they feel is right. If they wish to give, they will give. Those who do not will hardly be swayed by the words of some guy on a message board. B) Everyone forsees the "doomsday" situation of everything they care about nowdays, and with anime and manga, no, it is not happening anytime soon and it is just not that serious.

To provide context, this is my stance on the issue itself: If there is a licensed series that I like, I will buy it. I am proud of my DVD/BD collection, also. But, I have been known to download some eps first. Right or wrong? Don't care, I'm doing it anyway. If I like it, I will buy it. If I don't, well, that's my right. I'm voting with my dollar. Exceptions to my personal "licensed rule" include a) Censorship (in the case of the Viz release of the I"s manga), Digital Copy Needed (No, I'm not going to rip my own DVD when torrenting an episode is easier) c) Out-of-Print/Rare, but only when d) Overpriced. I'm cheap, but I recognize the value of good entertainment, and will gladly pay most prices on RightStuf's site.
When it comes to unlicensed, well, yeah, I download it. If it gets licensed and it is worth it, I'll buy it. I have HD rips of Macross 7 and Frontier and I've seen the whole series. But, if one day pigs fly and the sky parts and they get released here, I'll probably pre-order them both. Same can be said for Rose of Versailles.

I downloaded Utena, because after the first arc (which I have on DVD), each DVD release is about $14 for 3 episodes, due to being out of print. But, Funimation (or someone, maybe Nozomi) is releasing it at the end of the year. I will pick up the whole series when I get back to the states. FLCL is another example, with Funi's BD release coming at the end of this year. The ADV release of the original Macross is out-of-print, but not the hardest to find, but as soon as it goes out of my perceived proper price range or is hard to find, I will either download it or watch it on Hulu. Probably both, that way I don't always have to hear Vic as Hikaru.

Cool story, bro, right? That's the point. We should each design our own policies and chill a bit. If anyone disagrees with what I do, I am likely to listen, but how likely are you to stop me from downloading under my personally designated conditions? Not very, because I still support the industry plenty.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:16 am Reply with quote
No grave danger?
How long you been following anime?
I got into it around 2002, was at CCI when TP launched their "Manga Revolution" & have watched it all grow & then shrink. We've lost a lot of companies thru it all.
I can't be as optimistic as you. As companies in Japan go away, talent is lost, there's not guarantee anime will survive in the form we love. Will it vanish entirely? Probably not, but if it morphs into something other than what we love, becomes indecipherable from animation in other countries, wouldn't we have lost anime? I buy anime because it is different from what I could get here
It's already changed. Have you watched stuff from the 1990's & earlier before too much western influence? Stuff like Blue Seed which have a very distinct Japanese flavor? Their patriotism reminds me of the stuff I grew up on here in the 1960's
Quote:
I downloaded Utena, because after the first arc (which I have on DVD), each DVD release is about $14 for 3 episodes, due to being out of print.

Quote:
$41.98 Gokudo DVD Collection Extraordinaire Date Available: Aug 26 2003
$17.98 Kite Director's Cut DVD Adult
$17.98 Twelve Kingdoms DVD 1: Shoku Date Available: Jul 29 2003
$17.98 Twelve Kingdoms DVD 2: Empress Date Available: Sep 30 2003
$23.98 Zenki Saga 4 DVD (eps 40-51) Date Available: Sep 30 2003

This is the oldest dvd order I can find I placed at TRSI. So figure, that was $18 per single dvd. 12 Kingdoms was 10 dvds. Zenki was 4 sets so $96 for 51 eps.
Quote:
$20.09 Cardcaptor Sakura Vol. 17 DVD (S): Date Available: Sep 9 2003

THis for 3-4 SUB ONLY eps per dvd & this was actually pretty good compared to the $25 I paid at Best Buy when they carried CCS. There were I believe 18 dvds in the set plus 2 movies.
Quote:
$17.99 King of Bandit Jing 1 DVD (Hyb)
$17.99 King of Bandit Jing 4 DVD (Hyb)

This was a 4 dvd/12 or 13 eps series, so it's exactly what you're talking about.
So I can't exactly reach. I said I bought Bandai Visual. I was wrong on Enma. I paid $25 for each of the 2-episode sub only dvds so the set cost $50 (Been too long since I bought it)
Quote:
Super Robot Wars: The Original Generation: Dvd 9 $37.78

3 eps sub only 9 dvds to get to 25 eps.
Yes, $38 for 3 episodes with no dub & you are whining about $15 for Utena?

The problem is, fansubs usurp the rights of the creator. The creator should have the last say on what's done with their work, & not the fansubbers. The creators are saying stop please, yet the translations stay on the net.
People who download are basically saying "My desire for anime/manga outweighs the rights of the creator"

That they're only going after licensed anime/manga & reporting it to the host site sounds like the US in the past where they were trying to avoid upsetting the fans, but trying to staunch the flow. It may work, & maybe not. It took US companies long enough to take a stand.
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Fellistowe





PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:54 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
So how do the rest of us who have never downloaded a single episode of anime manage to acquire anime collections? How do you decide what movie to see in a theater? What shows to watch on tv?


I know you mean it in a more rhetorical sense, but I'll reply with my own anecdotal experience (shortened version):
I initially experienced anime through the few TV showings we've had here in the UK. I grew disgruntled with Movies and TV (so to answer that bit, I very rarely ever buy films or TV stuff), and so I started collecting DVDs and bought Newtype USA as a guide. I knew nothing about fansubs or internet fansites like ANN.
After a few years of this though I was getting more and more frustrated because I was picking up series I liked (I have a very low like threshold) but didn't love (think that was about the time I was collecting Tenchi GXP and Gundam SEED Destiny). And to answer your bit about just selling the DVD's on, I didn't have the internet and didn't know any other anime fans at the time, and no member of the general public would be interested in a couple of singles.
So I found and joined an anime society; that opened me up to fansubs and internet sites. THAT is what turned me into a complete fanboy. It got me on sites like this, got me buying way more anime than I used to buy, and started me buying figures and merchandise.
So to me, yes, fansubs were a positive influence. I may be a rare case though because I do have an expendable income and do like collecting pretty things which I think have worth.

J-Head wrote:
Cool story, bro, right? That's the point. We should each design our own policies and chill a bit. If anyone disagrees with what I do, I am likely to listen, but how likely are you to stop me from downloading under my personally designated conditions? Not very, because I still support the industry plenty.


As I said before you have the right idea, but many don't.
Let me throw some more anecdotal experience at you:
I've been involved with 2 anime societies now, and several conventions, plus have social circles of people who aren't anime fans but have seen it.

The vast majority (umm, 80% ish?) of new people I am encountering at the societies are people who have been watching fansubs and hardly ever if at all buy DVDs or merchandise. If anything their money goes on console games and homemade cosplay. They just don't consider anime (or TV programs of movies for that matter) as something worth paying for, they get it for free of the net. Yet these are the people who are mad for anime and devote a large part of their life to it.
On the flipside, the people I know who aren't anime fans (i.e. more normal people) have only encountered anime from the odd 1 or two series they had picked up on the highstreet and liked, and know nothing about just what's out there.

Is this really the right way for things to be?
And are we really happy with what appears to be a growing perception in Japan that most anime fans are leeching pirates? (see various reports of industry denouncing piracy, manga-ka throwing insults at scanlators, etc).
Do we just continue to have our little word wars on fansub vs industry, or just sit quietly on the sidelines and just see where this all ends up, or do we all do something proactive to improve people’s perceptions about the worth of anime and the work creators do?


p.s. Sorry for sending you all to sleep... Confused

p.p.s Just noticed the other longer fansub debate in the Hey Answerman thread; will go read that for some enlightenment Wink

UPDATE: OK, had a long think about how I used to think about anime before I found fansubs, and how I feel overall about the piracy debate.
Time to practice what I preach; no more fansubs for me (tbh I was half way there anyway Razz ).
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Sariachan



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:06 pm Reply with quote
I follow manga and anime from more than 20 years, and I still clearly remember when internet wasn't around, and thus not fansubs/scanlations either.

It was better? Not at all, in my opinion.
The more you are exposed to something, the more you know, the more you can wisely choose where to invest money, what to buy, and which are the worthy creators/companies.

To me, fansubs and scanlations help the natural selection of content, and make people focus on what they really like, instead of randomly trying some things instead of others (reviews and samples aren't usually enough), since except very few people nobody can afford to try everything and then have a quite global view of the manga/anime industry, something that only experience can give.


My second point is that too many "middlemen" are involved in the selling of anime-related products, while there are many people who prefer to buy as directly as possible from the original contents creator(s).
I would either buy a Japanese DVD with subtitles of a language I know, than an Italian one with the often horrid Italian dubs.
Of course there are subtitles in the Italian releases too, with the original Japanese audio, but I don't want to pay "professionals" who are dubbing not for their "skills" but for their connections (or ignorance of who produces the dubs).
Also, I could not care for the dubbing at all since I could want to watch a product in its original language only, thus not wanting to pay the extra price for a no-needed service.


My third point is a bit more complex, and it includes two aspects.
1) We can't force people to care. If someone really cares about something, they will spend money on it in a way or another. I someone doesn't care, they won't and they will instead use their money for other things. And there are also people who care but can't, but thanks to fansubs and scanlations these people can keep their interest in these things they couldn't otherwise been exposed to, and, when they can, they'll hopefully support the creators buying something.
2) Internet exists, it is a technology (an awesome one if you ask me), not using it is plain stupid, and scanlations and fansubbers are only filling a demand that the companies holding the rights are too slow to fill themselves (or are filling, but in an inefficient way like with too westernised adaptations, censorship and/or territorial restriction on content). Imho, stupidity is worse than breaking a law about digital use of fictional content (I underlined the digital part since some people talk about using fansub and scanlation like a theft of material, actual things, which is plain ridiculous).
So, if I can use internet to try 10 series to choose which one to buy, to make an example, I'll do it. That way, I'll be quite sure that my money will go to the people I think are more worthy.
More simply: being spoiled isn't always a bad thing.


That said, I hope that who care and can keep supporting the content creators as much as their possibilities allow, since making manga and animation is hard and take time, skills and money.
Nothing comes from nothing, so the natural selection can help on some extent, but could also destroy something when it isn't needed/wanted anymore. It the way nature works.

So, if you care about anime and manga, act accordingly and support them as much as you can and care. Not because the copyright laws (which are really outdated), but because behind them there are people you believe are worthy your money, time and attention.
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ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Best of luck to the germans, they have One Piece.

I don't so I can't quite raise arms yet.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4151
Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:45 am Reply with quote
sam28xk wrote:
cool i wish them the best we really need to support the things we all love so much


Now if only we could have something like this in the US to take down those annoying fansubs here , then the industry might stand a chance and those dub CEOs wont take drastic measures.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:52 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
That they're only going after licensed anime/manga & reporting it to the host site sounds like the US in the past where they were trying to avoid upsetting the fans, but trying to staunch the flow. It may work, & maybe not. It took US companies long enough to take a stand.


It is unlikely to work on its own, but as a part of a broader response it could easily help.

Leech anime streaming is different from the big manga bootleg viewer sites, since leech anime streaming sites do not host their own anime, but upload it to the big free streaming sites. Some fan groups feeding links to the official distributor, who forwards the C&D makes it far less expensive for the distributor to keep up with the uploads.

However, if it is reducing the quality of the bootleg anime streaming site without any alternative being available, there's substantially less benefit than if it is increasing the existing competitive advantages of a legit alternative.
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