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REVIEW: The Tyrant Falls in Love GN 1


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sunflower



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1080
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:22 pm Reply with quote
Non-con sexual fantasy stories don't imply anything except that some women enjoy that as a fantasy. To imply otherwise is like thinking that those who enjoy murder mysteries think killing someone is OK and Miss Marple is realistic.

I'm a rape victim. I enjoy non-con yaoi romances. I'm also an adult capable of telling that real and fantasy rape are completely different things. Most of us are-- its rather condescending to imply that we might not be able to. While we're quite aware that the first is heinous; the second can be empowering. And I have to say that yaoi rape stories have brought a number of silent victims into discussions with me for the first times in their lives about what they've been through.

But aside from all that, I'm a big girl-- I don't need to be protected from my fantasies.
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GracieLizzy



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Yeah but there is a huge lack of variety there. In my case I'd just really like to see some more consensual only yaoi. I simply don't find rape all that appealing to read about as a fantasy, personally. I won't deny the 'moral' reasons of it also effect my dislike of it as a plot device, but I have no problem with other people having rape fantasies... it's just not my cup of tea and I'd a appreciate a few good servings or what is my cup of tea.
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musouka



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 638
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:04 pm Reply with quote
GracieLizzy wrote:
Yeah but there is a huge lack of variety there. In my case I'd just really like to see some more consensual only yaoi.


It's really not THAT hard to find. Rape fantasies aren't my kink, and I never had a problem finding BL to read. The idea that ALL BL has non-con is as ridiculous as tarring all romance novels with the same brush. Anyone who reads SBTB will understand that's an outdated and, frankly, insulting stereotype of that brand of literature and the people that read it. BL is the same way. If all you've done is read a few series circa the mid nineties, it might surprise you to discover that the genre has actually progressed from what sort of cliches used to be popular.

Parsifal24 wrote:
"Is Yaoi just the fetishistic use of someone elses sexuality for the readers own pleasure?


It can be. Though a lot of BL authors are trying to be more sensitive to homosexuality. (With mixed results, of course) You don't see a lot of "gay for HIM" like you used to, for example.

Parsifal24 wrote:
And if so is it a double stranded that when women create Yaoi which uses Homosexual relationships it is looked upon sometimes as a form of female empowerment where as when men do the same thing with Lesbian sexuality that's looked upon as exploitative?"


Men are in a position of power over women. Women are not the same when it comes to men. It gets trickier when you bring homosexual men into the equation, but it is perfectly possible for one thing to be more exploitative than the other due to the societal power backing one group that another group doesn't have.
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GracieLizzy



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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Location: Sunderland, England, UK
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:04 pm Reply with quote
musouka wrote:
GracieLizzy wrote:
Yeah but there is a huge lack of variety there. In my case I'd just really like to see some more consensual only yaoi.


It's really not THAT hard to find. Rape fantasies aren't my kink, and I never had a problem finding BL to read. The idea that ALL BL has non-con is as ridiculous as tarring all romance novels with the same brush.


I have had a difficult time finding consensual yaoi as I am not really sure where to start. I do know it's not all got rape (I hate calling it non-con personally) but I am never sure where to start. It's quite possible I've just been Googling the wrong thing. If someone could point me in the right direction, I'd really appreciate it. Smile
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PrettyKitty20034



Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 119
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:11 pm Reply with quote
Whenever I see any genre tagged with the "It's all the same" line, I just shake my head, as it pretty much always used by someone not widely read in the genre. I even admit to using it myself when I try to explain why I'm not into reading mystery genre novels.

Anyway, in regards to BL, not all mangaka use the forced seduction plot device. You'll need to venture outside of the really popular series to find them though.

Netcomics has published a few quality books, though I've never seen any discussion about them. Books like Age Called Blue by Est Em, or Tomoko Yamashita's Dining Bar Akira and Black Winged Love. They've also published Love Full of Scars, which really turned that stupid "smaller man=bottom" trope on it's head. U Don't Know Me is a manhwa but it also qualifies if I remember correctly. (I haven't read some of these in quite awhile).

And then there Deux, who published such gems as Future Lovers, one of my very favorite romantic comedies, and two more of Est Em's books, Red Blinds the Foolish and Seduce Me after the Show.

June publishes a lot of that schoolby crap that I tend to dislike, but they too have some good mangaka. Toko Kawai, Yugi Yamada, neither of these tend to write rapey stories. Fumi Yoshinaga's Ichigenme is rape free as well. (She did write the rapey Gerard & Jaques though).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that there is a variety of work available, just like in any other genre.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:25 pm Reply with quote
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014733-503544.html
Quote:
Ken Mehlman, Bush Campaign Manager, Comes Out as Gay

Because in real life a man who actively worked against gay interests could never "turn gay".
WARNING 1-
I know there are a number of people out there who detest Gravitation. If you are amongst those, then this isn't for you if it follows the style of Challengers. Challengers is not AS insane as Gravi (no panda mech. No boy toy cosplaying. No gun-toting American manager, ALTHOUGH there is a bit at the end Vol 3 where meddling mom, in an attempt to help forward her son's relationship with his chosen throws a wig on son's friend & a gun is added so the resemblance to K is there. )
These are very much in the screwball comedy genre where everything is a series of exaggerations & misunderstandings. I discovered the Marx Brothers, Cary Grant & these sorts of movies back in the '70's as a teen so I have no problem relating to them as that. A pair of old ladies poisoning lonely old men is hardly a funny topic, but it is hilarious in Arsenic & Old Lace. Serial Killer returning home having escaped from prison again is hardly funny, but it works in Arsenic & Old Lace.

2-yaoi is NOT REAL. Yeah, some of it aspires to try to portray a realistic gay lifestyle, but there is actually a separate genre that IS targeted at gay men. Yaoi is shojo romance minus the chicks as the romantic interest & indeed we often see the uke acting more like a shojo heroine than any self-respecting man should.
But this is fiction.

OK?
The copyright in the first Challengers is 2004. The author comments the magazine the series started in went away, so I assume that means it fot its start in Biblos. Tyrant was licensed by Drama Queen who announced about 50 titles, released 6 or 8 & then we got endless excuses about how this or that title went to the printers, but was unsatisfactory when it came back--basically a lot of talk & no action. The series is in the "you can't help who you fall in love with" genre & indeed, we get the side characters trying to horn in on the main couple. the chick who think she can bring one of the couple back over to heterosexuality, LOTS of overreaction discovery scenes & some really bad American stereotypes. THe focus is in the humor more than the relationship. If you want sweet romance, there are others to try. Dismissing all yaoi as porn & rape city is like saying all shojo is exactly like Sensual Phrase.

Soichi actually had quite a bit more to do with Challengers than I remembered. Since there is no "kill as soon as XXXX" seme in Challengers, Soichi adds that "I'm dead as soon as big bro gets here" element. Vol 3 starts out with the main couple trying & failing to consumate their relationship & each one seeking the advice from different gay sources on how to do so. It's the walking down the street bump into (actually buddy puking on following too much drinking) love-at-first sight sort of tale. (Basically crush)

It sounds from the review as though there's some re-telling. In Vol 2 of Challengers, Morinaga's friend Hiroto comments such deep-seated hatred has to have a base & it is revealed in flashback in the winter of Morinaga's 2nd year he fell in love (crush) from afar (having been ignored at being invited drinking) with senior Tatsumi's slender build, his flat expression & quiet, scholarly manner & his ass & manhood. Finally an opportunity presented itself (study related) for Morinaga to invite his stalkee over, but that same evening Tatsumi's middle-aged professor kept him late & tried to rape him. Morinaga, wondering what was taking so long saved Tatsumi's virginity by smashing said professor with a skateboard & then had to save the professor from Tatsumi "I won't be satisfied untill I've lopped off his XXX and sliced it into tiny pieces so he'll never be able to use it again!" The events in Challengers come 4 yrs later.

On why non-con is used.
At the end of Vol 2 of Challengers, the author has 19 pages left over so she explains some things. Her editor suggested coming up with something to bring the couple together since the alpha wasn't aggressively pursuing the beta so she suggested Soichi attacking Kurokawa, falling thru the window & dangling from the balcony & Tomoe, realizing he could only save one, chooses the one he loves, but it was rejected because Soichi died. Also rejected were leukemia, a plain crash & "a mountain of other soap opera plot devices, but in the end, the all boiled down to flat, harmless, lame cliches" The author's brother suggested even more schticks, but the author pointed out the story is one big, long series of set-ups. Her friends suggested trying to go 100 volumes with Rick going to space in volume 100, but her editor rejected it, saying she shouldn't draw homos in space.

So basically, what you're seeing in any manga is not just the author writing a story, but also the editor rejecting whatever s/he feels won't sell an audience. Were this prose, sure they could take 3 chapters to set up a sweet romance, & indeed there is a line of BL that IS sweet romance, ending with a kiss & holding hands (The Ring Finger manga for example). A lot of yaoi tops out at 1 volume so there isn't a hell of a lot of room for character development. It's not like the average shonen tale that runs over a dozen volumes & Goku & ChiChi can get married about 20 volumes in. A lot of yaoi is about the pursuit, so once the couple is together, the point of the story ends.

I mean hells bells, I don't really see that much non-con in yaoi. There are lots & lots of titles that have been licensed where it doesn't happen. Menkui, as I recall-3 volumes & all we get is a kiss. People are acting as though that's all yaoi is about & you just must be hitting the wrong titles. I don't recall non con on Color By Eiki Eiki & Taishi Zaoh. It's been a loooong time since I read Level C, but I recall that as consensual. Same for Skyscrapers of Oz. I don't think Hyouta Fujiyama runs to rape stories often. Play Boy Blues I don't believe has non-con. Dry Heat? Kabuki? Selfish Mr. Mermaid? Shy Intentions?
Watching 20 eps of Dark Shadows last week I realized that is probably why I HATE ingenues. Yaoi is ingenue-free romance. Yeah!
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: HK wherabouts Pronouns: she/her
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 pm Reply with quote
I skipped a few posts in this thread but one thing I want to add is that I have an ideal when it comes to BL stories. Not saying it would make a good BL manga, or I expect ones like it should exist. This ideal is that non-con is only limited to one or more character's assumptions about his sexuality being influenced by his surroundings. In other words, resistance by the uke, or more delicate looking individual of the pair, when the forceful seme makes his moves often does not reflect the uke's romantic inner feelings for his partner. He feels uncomfortable about sex only because of the societal pressures against homosexuality. This type of non-con is ok with me.

With straight hentai, or romance manga society encourages girls to find a strong, caring man. Therefore if an attraction is acknowledged, sexual activity is expected. That doesn't mean however that sex should happen if both partners don't consent to it.

In yaoi, I think there is a big difference between someone who is truly disgusted about the thought of intimacy with the same sex and someone probably gay or bi but ashamed of not living up to societies expectations. If they are forced into sex, there's no way around it, it's rape. I don't think the concept of repressed homosexuality (super homophobic, but actually gay) plays too much in manga.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:52 pm Reply with quote
I mentioned this strange concept of all yaoi is non-con to my roommate. Her comment was if you're going for a tsundere uke, then yeah, you're going to hit non-con
Age Called Blue, All Nippon AirLine...Ze is a nice series that doesn't have non con, but it's a master/doll situation with most of the dolls willing to submit. They're actually paper-shikigami. The shikigami have to be the same gender as their master & there's one female pair in the mix; Black Sun, Silver Moon; Blood Honey; Allure; Alley of First Love; Angel's Coffin; Ciao Ciao Bambino;
I really can't see how the people who feel all there is is non-con can keep hitting it so regularly.
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momogoldfish



Joined: 01 May 2009
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:44 am Reply with quote
Actually most of Takanaga Hinako's other works (as far as I can recall) are WAFFy rom-coms and even when they are slightly angsty like Little Butterfly the sex is still 100% consensual...so if the only problem you have with The Tyrant Falls in Love is the non-con (or dub-con) I suggest trying some of her other works.

As for me, I don't really mind non-con BL as long as other aspect of the story is appealing though I still find sex between consensual couples much more appealing (hence why I preferred Junjou Romantica s2 anime over the corresponding chapters since there isn't the obligatory 1 sex scene per act in the anime)
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:14 am Reply with quote
Are we also perhaps conflating yaoi and BL here? My understanding has been that there is a distinction, with BL being a developed romance and yaoi being, well... yamanashi (no climax) ochinashi (no punchline) iminashi (not meaning), i.e. porn. And if you've got a character who has hang ups about their sexuality but you want to get to the sex ASAP, "forcible seduction" is more likely to happen. Not always, of course, but more likely.

But that's true of heterosexual stuff as well. I'm not claiming yaoi is the only perpetrator here! Nor am I saying it's wrong to like these series (there have been a couple of those smutty josei series I mentioned that I've liked myself).

But when people raise the arguments I mentioned in defense of a series, it really bothers me because I worry that if they can raise these defenses so quickly (as opposed to simply saying "sure, this would be wrong in real life, but this is fiction") how much has this line of reasoning infected their real-life attitudes? I'm still reeling from some of the posts left at Junjou Romantica, is all.
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PrettyKitty20034



Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 119
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:35 am Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
how much has this line of reasoning infected their real-life attitudes?


I don't think it neccessarily does. 99% of people are easily able to separate real life from fiction. For example, someone may enjoy playing a game like Grand Theft Auto, but in real life they're not going to go steal a car and start running over pedestrians. Just like how someone may enjoy a good forced seduction scene in a story, but be grossed out by it in real life.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:08 am Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Are we also perhaps conflating yaoi and BL here? My understanding has been that there is a distinction, with BL being a developed romance and yaoi being, well... yamanashi (no climax) ochinashi (no punchline) iminashi (not meaning), i.e. porn. And if you've got a character who has hang ups about their sexuality but you want to get to the sex ASAP, "forcible seduction" is more likely to happen. Not always, of course, but more likely
.
You DO realize Wold Adaptor by Saiyuki's Minekura which I believe is a Tokyopop title here runs in Chara along with Crimson Spell by Finder's Yamane which is very much an adult title released by Kitty here.
BL is BL in Japan.It is American audiences (maybe others) who differentiate the hardcore from the less extreme. ML/Men's Love is aimed at guys. Shounen Ai is an obsolete phrase as I understand which fell out of use shortly after Gravitation's run (OK, it's still running as, I understand, hardcore doujin which the author prefers doing to the professional magazine market)

vashfanatic wrote:
But when people raise the arguments I mentioned in defense of a series, it really bothers me because I worry that if they can raise these defenses so quickly (as opposed to simply saying "sure, this would be wrong in real life, but this is fiction") how much has this line of reasoning infected their real-life attitudes? I'm still reeling from some of the posts left at Junjou Romantica, is all.

The people protesting non-con seem to be the ones having the hardest time accepting it is fantasy. I'm a 50 yr old widow mother of a 19 yr old & I assure you my daughter backs down for no one so I know she understands no means no to the point she's kept a guy at arm's length for a couple yrs because she is too busy being 19 & doesn't want any part of "commitment" right now.
I love horror movies. I'm NOT going to pick up a machete & imitate Jason. Is that any different from the idea that I'm going to say it's ok in real life for some dude to force himself on my daughter? We all know vampires are not real. Does that mean we shouldn't read vampire stories? Isn't that the POINT of fiction? Make Believe?
The last Junjyu was incredible. Misaki had another "I'm thinking like a gay guy" moment when he was all jealous about Mizaki & Akihiko broke down & admitted just how needy he really is. Misaki thinks it's just a thing Akihiko will lose interest in which is one of the cliches of yaoi--that with no ability to produce children, one of the pair will move on to a woman & form a "real" relationship that will produce the whole 2.5 grandchildren, etc. (Tomoe & soichi's sister has decided she must carry on the family line since she believes both of her brothers arte gay)
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lebrel



Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:28 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:
I don't think the concept of repressed homosexuality (super homophobic, but actually gay) plays too much in manga.


Well, Tyrant is one case of pretty much exactly that. Souichi is deeply attached to Morinaga and nearly completely emotionally dependent on him, but he's also vocally homophobic and absolutely, categorically refuses to think about what his feelings for Morinaga might mean (and gets violent when anyone makes him).

Also, Challengers isn't required for Tyrant, but it is a charming and hilarious fluffy romantic comedy and well worth hunting down. V1 is out of print and getting expensive, but V2-4 are available directly from DramaQueen at a slight discount.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:28 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Are we also perhaps conflating yaoi and BL here? My understanding has been that there is a distinction, with BL being a developed romance and yaoi being, well... yamanashi (no climax) ochinashi (no punchline) iminashi (not meaning), i.e. porn.

I know where the term yaoi allegedly came from, but the way some parties flash that around, almost as proof yaoi is worthless bothers me.
Realistically the idea is as racist as Charlie Manson's idea there was going to be a race war, the Blacks would win, but lack the ability to govern themselves so Manson's family would crawl out of their cave & lead the poor ignorant fools.
It's either saying "porn for guys has a point, but porn for females doesn't" or that the stories themselves are pointless because a relationship between 2 men is pointless.
Excuse me. but most yaoi not only HAS an end, it tends to run pretty short-like one volume.
Females in Japan have been an underclass for ages while men have had all the power which supports belittling yaoi as dismissive of women's choices.
On the other hand, I see more support on the homosexual dismissal side. Japan historically had no bid issue over sex as a sin as it has been seen in christian & other cultures. Homosexuality is frowned upon now, but there was a time in their history when samurai, like greek warriors, felt women made them soft & homosexual love was not the taboo it is now. The dif would be the introduction of Western culture & the whole productive cog mentality Japan possesses now. 2 men loving one another exclusively do not produce a future cog to keep society rolling aloing & thus are a waste, "meaningless".
it's ok to use the term to describe the genre, but using that description to dismiss it is really trying to marginalize the readers or the subjects. It's saying yaoi is pointless, but moe, aimed at guys, has meaning.
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otakubaybay



Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:03 pm Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
I don't even remember how I first heard about this title but it's been on my Amazon wishlist for what seems like forever (along with a lot of other "why-didn't-they-ever-release-this-after-announcing-it?" titles from various BL publishers). Now that it's actually out I've throw it in my Shopping Cart but I've been wondering-- would I enjoy this more if I read Challengers first? I never picked up that series and I don't really relish the idea of hunting down all 4 volumes from various Amazon Marketplace sellers, especially since unlike some books these haven't gone down in price (besides v01) in the secondary market.


You'll be fine reading Tyrant without Challengers for a while, but if you want to read about Morinaga and Souichi's relationship from the beginning, you might want to start with Challengers since their story starts as a two-part side story in Challengers Vol. 3 called "Anything is Possible". I suppose it doesn't really matter in what order you read Tyrant and "Anything is Possible", but the events of "Anything is Possible" are good to know for small references to it in Tyrant. I myself bought/read all of Challengers around when I was reading volume 4 or 5 of Tyrant.

Also, there are some hilariously awesome scenes in the sixth volume of Tyrant that those who haven't read Challengers will probably be lost while reading which are a real treat (for one, you get to see how much Takanaga-sensei's art has gorgeously improved over the years), what with the greatly amusing way the characters of the two stories interact. And I have to say my favorite Challengers chapter involves a meeting of the two couples of Challengers and Tyrant.

Challengers is super funny and super cute; it's kind of like Tyrant without the sex and more fluff (but not over the top) and I definitely think it's worth checking out (you can find the first volume of Challengers on eBay for relatively cheaper than the Amazon Marketplace). Hope that helps!
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