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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:30 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz wrote:
As dtm42 pointed out, it's one thing to say one liked the series, another to make a comparative evaluation and form the conclusion that it is the best over other entries, unless that expression means nothing more than that of approval similar to how "gentelman" stopped becoming a statement of fact and began to mean that some dude was cool.


Are you actually reading dtm42's comments? He hasn't pointed out squat. This line of discourse started because dtm42 can't figure out why some people think Toradora! is one of the best romcoms evah. He can't figure this out because he doesn't share that opinion and like a lot of other narrow-minded people, he is baffled by an opinion that doesn't correspond to his own. PetrifiedJello, like many of us, is aware of dtm42's rapturous love for RahXephon and rationally pointed that dtm42's spontaneous orgasms for that show is no different than somebody being equally enthusiastic about Toradora!

Glad to clear this up for you.
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Leebo



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:45 pm Reply with quote
It's kind of ridiculous to think more or less of someone based on their preference of Toradora versus RahXephon.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:59 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I'll simply respond that RahXephon completely blows Toradora! out of the water, and if you think otherwise then my opinion of you is at an all-time low.


I'm pretty sure your opinion of me is already at an all-time low, so I doubt it'll affect anything if I admit that I believe exactly the reverse. But I've already discussed my decided lack of love for RahXephon (except for a couple of choice episodes) in enough other threads so I won't bother here.

Megiddo wrote:
Ah... I love seeing "top-rate writing" being flung around casually. Generally, I would say that a requirement of "top-rate writing" would be that the characters are consistent. However, I've found that in the case of Toradora, most of the characters can be split into first half (comedy) and second half (drama) with major rifts between the two that were never explained.


I totally disagree. I don't have long before I have to go to my evening job, but I'll deal with as many of your cases as I have time (although I did explain some of this in the review, I would point out).

Quote:
Such as the main character Ryuuji Takasu. spoiler[In the first half of the story he is heads-over-heels in love with Minori Kushieda, even devoting a small shoe box filled with mementos of her as well as some planning for his confession/future-courtship. In the second half, however, this near-obsession of his is simply done away with. Yes, he starts to pine a bit more for Taiga Aisaka's affection, but the feelings he had for Minori wouldn't just up and disappear. I remember (and please note I watched Toradora over a year ago so I may make mistakes amongst my recollection) there was somewhat of an ultimatum he had to make on/near Christmas Eve, that of going to Minori and confessing, or that of consoling Taiga who is all alone with no family with her for Xmas. He chooses the latter, and as far as I can remember, that was the last sort of inner conflict he had about his feelings for Minori. Now, having been in love, let me tell you that those feelings don't just fade into nothingness. There needed to be some sort of confrontation between him and Minori in order to sort out such feelings, yet the author completely omitted this and instead just writes them out of the story.]


Then you either missed or misinterpreted a lot of what was going on through the middle episodes. spoiler[The series strongly implies that what Ryuji felt for Minorin - and, for that matter, what Taiga felt for Kitamura - might have more accurately been crushes than true love. Even if you interpret their feelings as love, in neither case do two leads ever show a comfort zone with their main love interests that even approaches what they have for each other. The love that Ryuji and Taiga eventually have for each other gradually develops out of that over the course of the series; if it seems like a sudden transition to you, it's more accurately a case of those feelings sneaking up on them while they try to focus on their more intense flash-in-the-pan love interests and then finally surfacing in reality-shaking epiphanies.]

Quote:
Taiga is quite similar. spoiler[She was obsessed with Yuusaku Kitamura for the whole first half of the story (and even some of the second half, as she literally fights for his honor against the student council president. Yet after that fight, she never once again stammers around Kitamura after that or makes any sort of sign denoting her feelings for him. The author, once again, eliminates any sort of confrontation between the two so Taiga could sort out her own feelings, and instead just writes them off.]


No. The point at which Taiga finally starts feeling comfortable around Kitamura comes after spoiler[Taiga talks to him at the temple on New Year's and asks for his blessing in helping her forget her attraction to Ryuji, but that was also set up by the canal-side talk she had with Kitamura an episode earlier. I also took her increased comfort level as a sign that she had decided - even if she didn't want to admit it yet - which way her heart really leaned, and as I said above, there's plenty of material in the series to support that her feelings were gradually shifting towards Ryuji.]

Quote:
Minori's change is much, much larger. Through the entire first half of the show, she plays the "genki girl", ever energetic and spunky. spoiler[In the second half of the series, she is merely an irritated and serious (and sometimes quite b*tchy) high school girl. She also rejects Ryuuji and yet continues to pine for him after rejecting him. She makes a stand and boldly states to Ami Kawashima next to the vending machine that she would be serious in her pursuit to Ryuuji, even if it meant losing her friendship to Taiga. Yet in the very next episode after Taiga runs off, instead of Minori making her move (as she said she would in the episode prior), she tells Ryuuji to run after Taiga.] This small example is a perfect display of Minori's character. Her only consistency is that she is completely inconsistent. Her whole character is subject to whatever the plot demands.


I don't think you're at all interpreting that vending machine scene with Ami correctly, but that's partly because Minorin has that bad habit of talking in metaphors. spoiler[Minorin states in that scene that she intends to focus only on what she can clearly see, and to her love is a ghost. Her statement to Ami at that point is a declaration that she doesn't intend to pursue Ryuji even though she has feelings for him. Also, her attraction to Ryuji has been present since early in the series, but only over the course of the series has she gradually come to understand it. That's why Ami's comment to her after the first fight was so biting, and her changing emotional state can certainly be credited towards starting to realize that her own emotions were threatening to put her in conflict with her best friend.]

I'm out of time, so I'll comment more on this later if these explanations aren't sufficient.

EDIT: Fixed broken tag.


Last edited by Key on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Bento-Box



Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:02 pm Reply with quote
I think ideas expressed as "opinions" are valid because everyone has a right to their own view of things - regardless of the subject.

Opinions can also be the subject of debate.

The way some posters phrase things makes it sound as if "opinions" are radical statements that could upset the balance of the universe should they not align with others opinions.

That being said, it is definitely of my opinion that Toradora is a better series than RahXephon for the following reasons:
Well Planned Character Introductions - As previously mentioned, Toradora introduces characters at a good pace. Just when the viewer becomes almost comfortable with a situation or character, another facet or character is introduced. RahXephon (I'm talking about the TV series, for clarification), however, tossed the viewer into the world without allowing much time to develop an attachment to anyone character. Sure, as it progresses, a few of the characters spoiler[make return appearances] and one in particular meets an spoiler[extremely emotional demise], I still found it difficult to "feel" for all but one. Personally, I couldn't care less about Kamiya.
Meaty Character Development - This goes along with the previous point. Toradora not only introduced quite a number of characters, but they allowed each of them to grown and change. Sure, it may not have been as world altering as what RahXephon promised, but... we're talking school atmosphere versus military atmosphere. For the most part, I felt like the characters in RahXephon were the exact same people at the end of the show as when they were introduced.
Sticks to the Plot - Sure, each series has its side stories and episodic excursions, but RahXephon literally bored me to sleep on multiple occasions by simply not progressing the plot. The story was so watered down with the monster of the week feel and other silly things that felt out of place (i.e. living arrangements and petty love triangles that didn't peak my interest because the characters were too bland or "rara" girl's constant air-headed demeanor with her "plug suit".). By the end of RahXephon, I was just glad that it was over. Toradora, on the other hand, had plenty of energy. You'd think the mecha/sci-fi/action series would have had more energy than a school romance/comedy/drama, but it didn't. Each episode of Toradora flowed well into the next and built on previously addressed issues for each character. I can't think of a single episode that felt repetitive or boring for that matter. Each episode had something new and intriguing introduced that left me wanting more. Even though there are multiple "swimming" episodes which are usually a big lull for a series, the plot still manages to shine right through.
Better Handling of Back Story - I can't remember how many episodes of RahXephon were devoted to back story. But, however many there were, there were equally too many. As I mentioned above, the lack of interesting and well developed characters made for a boring experience. The delivery of back story was no exception. I think the back story actually made this series a little more tarnished for me. I remember it being in an awkward place in the series, completely interrupting what little flow they might have had going. Rather than shoving entire episodes full of back story in the viewer's face, Toradora gives small tidbits about characters through dialogue or internal monologue. Even Tiaga's back story is provided over one or two episodes while still continuing the main plot, love themes, and character development. At the same time, it gives much needed insight into Ryuji's character as well.

That's about all that comes to mind for the moment without getting into character design, music, and other miscellaneous things.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:09 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Key wrote:
In the process it rounds out one of the best romantic comedies anime has ever generated.


Really? I mean, really?

I'm an outspoken critic of Toradora! and the hype it engenders, I have made that so very clear in the past. But these kind of statements still shock me. I mean, really, one of the best Anime RomCom shows ever? How can people think that way?

So, for comparison, what would you consider (one of) the best rom-com(s) ever? Maybe you could contribute to the conversation rather than just provoking people because your opinion isn't in the majority.
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Raebo101



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Toradora Vs. Rahxephon? Why? Confused
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Bento-Box



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Raebo101 wrote:
Toradora Vs. Rahxephon? Why? Confused


LOL

dtm42 wrote:

I'll simply respond that RahXephon completely blows Toradora! out of the water, and if you think otherwise then my opinion of you is at an all-time low.


Unfortunately, that's why. Although, I can't really say that I care what dtm42 thinks about me, I thought it would be at least humorous to compare anyways and elaborate.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:58 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
No asinine excuses, I don't deal in those. I'll simply respond that RahXephon completely blows Toradora! out of the water, and if you think otherwise then my opinion of you is at an all-time low.

Firstly, I seriously doubt anyone on this forum, myself include, can get any lower, so what the hell is there to lose.

Secondly, the issue wasn't about the comment but how it was said. In other words: you thought the same way as Key regarding RahXephon while asking the question "How can people think that way?"

You're either trolling Key or ... wait, there is no "or".

I'm still not understanding why it's okay for you to put passion behind your opinions but rue when someone else does it for their opinion.

On a personal note, I've seen episode 1 of RahXephon and none of Toradora, but considering the former is another [bleeping] mecha series, Toradora wins by default.

Cute girls > nuts and bolts.

Mecha is not my cup of tea, not that I wouldn't watch it at some point. It'll just never be "good" as you see it.

Oh no. I expressed an opinion. I'm gonna get in trouble now.

Raebo101 wrote:
Toradora Vs. Rahxephon? Why?

Because I didn't even notice the "epic love story" when I quoted dtm42's remarks regarding the series and Key's "RomCom" opinion.

Yeah, spaced that completely. Sorry about that. The first part of the comment was where I was driving at given dtm42's opinion was compared to all of anime, not just "RomCom".
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Although I've yet to see Toradora, I don't know if I can watch it now, because the idea that liking it can make dtm42's opinion of me lower causes a deep, existential crisis in my heart
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Megiddo



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

I don't think you're at all interpreting that vending machine scene with Ami correctly, but that's partly because Minorin has that bad habit of talking in metaphors. spoiler[Minorin states in that scene that she intends to focus only on what she can clearly see, and to her love is a ghost. Her statement to Ami at that point is a declaration that she doesn intend to pursue Ryuji even though she has feelings for him. Also, her attraction to Ryuji has been present since early in the series, but only over the course of the series has she gradually come to understand it. That's why Ami's comment to her after the first fight was so biting, and her changing emotional state can certainly be credited towards starting to realize that her own emotions were threatening to put her in conflict with her best friend.]

That may very well be. I transcribed Minorin's conversation with Ami long ago (it uses the fansub translation, so if the official translation is noticeably different, do tell me as that could be a problem here).
spoiler[Minori: You know, I wanted to tell you this a long time ago.
Ami: Huh? What is there left to say after all that?
Minori: Actually, there's a... ghost in that gap!
Ami: Seriously?
Minori: It appears between those two vending machines. I heard it was a heartbroken girl who...
Ami: Why didn't you tell me earlier?
Minori: But nothing has happened so far, right?
Ami: Huh?
Minori: I think ghosts have their own personality too. They'll only appear to people who they want to see and understand them. I think I've seen a ghost before (flashback to Minori and Ryuuji at the villa looking at the stars), however... I don't want to yearn and get caught by something I cannot see and lose the things I can see. That's why..!
Ami: You talk too much, I don't want to hear the whole thing.
Minori: You'll understand after you've heard the whole thing!
Ami: Really? You want to say that if I just watch and don't interfere, everything will turn out fine, right? Whatever, talking to you feels like having a period.
Minori: I won't hesitate anymore! I will look forward and try to get what I want!
Ami: Gosh, shut up.
Minori: I won't hesitate anymore, I swear! I swear! I definitely won't! ]


spoiler[Now, what I took from this was that up to that point, Minorin had indeed been scared to "lose the things she can see" (her friendship to Taiga) to pursue a deeper relationship with Takasu (something she cannot see). Ami at this point was frustrated because Minorin was yet again suppressing her feelings and giving her advice to do so as well, but in the end Minorin shouts that she "won't hesitate anymore". Now to me, this implies that she was having a change of mindset. That she would instead be selfish and "try to get what [she] want[s]". I took this directly to mean that she was no longer scared to lose her friendship to Taiga in order to get closer to Ryuuji.

I'll grant you your first two points, though I may not agree with them... I can see why you and others would think that about Ryuuji and Taiga, but Minorin's drastic character flop is something that I personally think can only be interpreted in this way: that she went from being selfish and exclaiming to Ami that she would try to get what she wants, to telling Ryuuji to run after Taiga in what would have been a perfect chance to advance on Ryuuji. If you took the vending machine conversation differently, then that's fine. I would like to know how you reached your conclusion though, similarly as I have mapped out in this post if possible.]
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Otaking09



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:11 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Toradora Vs. Rahxephon? Why?


Yeah... good question. They're both COMPLETELY different genres. I'm surprised people are even responding to that.

RahXephon is... different. Which is good.
Toradora does the best it POSSIBLY can with it's formula. Also good.

Both are good. Both are different. Isn't that enough? Isn't the fact that two things can be good AND be different from one another a good thing?

Personally, if we're talking about romance regardless of genres, I'd choose Welcome to the NHK, Eureka Seven, and Koi Kaze. Although, I'm a nice fan of some NGE romances too.

Quote:
Then you either missed or misinterpreted a lot of what was going on through the middle episodes.


Yeah, if there's one thing I can say Toradora excelled in was that it told one of the most convincing tsundere + nice guy romances I've seen.
However...

Quote:
I don't think you're at all interpreting that vending machine scene with Ami correctly, but that's partly because Minorin has that bad habit of talking in metaphors.


This point only furthers both my admiration of Ami and my dissatisfaction with Minorin. One would think that spoiler[realizing their true feelings would create... tension with their love rivals. Best friends or not, it's still love]. But... we only get a spoiler[fued of two girls in love who seem to know more about each other's feelings in addition to the leads, but still choose to support them]. You can call that true friendship, but it could've been a SUPERB opportunity for Taiga and Ryuji to consider their friends over their pressuring feelings.
I simply loved Ami's character. IMO, she was the most REAL character in the whole show.
Minori, just... didn't seem to prioritize herself. I guess that's my biggest concern.
Oh, and I didn't qoute Key's spoiler sections on purpose. No need to take up more space.

But really dtm. Seriously. Toradora deserves some credit. It did what most romcoms don't, and does it WELL.
I mean, I, personally, didn't care for RahXephon as a whole. It's easier to respect the boldness of it's creation than to enjoy it.
Not to mention that the ending of RahXephon happens to be one of my least favorite.
If I were to pick a mecha/romance hybrid, it'd be Eureka Seven.[/quote]
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kyokun703



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
Although I've yet to see Toradora, I don't know if I can watch it now, because the idea that liking it can make dtm42's opinion of me lower causes a deep, existential crisis in my heart.

Hahahaha, best quote of the day!

Seriously, I'm a RahXephon fan myself, but this is absurd.

I'm looking forward to watching Toradora again, now that I have the complete set.
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Zin5ki
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:07 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz wrote:
Now I'm confused. Are ideas expressed in "opinions" not subject to criticism since they don't bear facts?

Out of a profound interest in the terminology you have selected here, might I ask whether the term "non-cognitivism" is one with which you are acquainted?

Quote:
As dtm42 pointed out, it's one thing to say one liked the series, another to make a comparative evaluation and form the conclusion that it is the best over other entries, unless that expression means nothing more than that of approval

As I suspect you may already know, again in virtue of the language you are using, there exist at least two mature theories on the matter that would vindicate this notion. I, for the record, am quite fond of them.
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khryoleoz



Joined: 21 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:32 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
khryoleoz wrote:
As dtm42 pointed out, it's one thing to say one liked the series, another to make a comparative evaluation and form the conclusion that it is the best over other entries, unless that expression means nothing more than that of approval similar to how "gentelman" stopped becoming a statement of fact and began to mean that some dude was cool.


Are you actually reading dtm42's comments? He hasn't pointed out squat. This line of discourse started because dtm42 can't figure out why some people think Toradora! is one of the best romcoms evah. He can't figure this out because he doesn't share that opinion and like a lot of other narrow-minded people, he is baffled by an opinion that doesn't correspond to his own. PetrifiedJello, like many of us, is aware of dtm42's rapturous love for RahXephon and rationally pointed that dtm42's spontaneous orgasms for that show is no different than somebody being equally enthusiastic about Toradora!

Glad to clear this up for you.


Sorry, but I wasn't unclear about what dtm42 needed to point out yet failed to in order to pursuade me towards taking a similar position. I watched Toradora myself. And while I can rationally acquiesce to there being reasons for thinking that the show is greater than some other shows, I don't particularly hold to those reasons. We're not just dealing in arbitrary terms in which taste and preferrences are the only factors. If there is a sence in which Toradora can be liked, there is also another sense in which it can't be liked.

As a romcom entry, I think it is tragic that the series focuses upon characters I wouldn't care for had I met them in real life. My assessment of Taiga is that she is not even pathetic but loathesome. She is well accustomed to using her dominant image to get her way up to making an unwitting dupe to become her dog. But she makes no demands of her father to be fatherly and hadn't the courage to make her interest known to Yusaka. spoiler[And when her world is shattered because the object of her interest reveals that he loves another, she tries to inflict harm upon that other instead! Did she think that he would appreciate seeing his beloved beaten to a bloody pulp? Her actions might have resulted in the consequence of Sumire's heart and hidden intentions being made known, but it was a scene in which Sumire was the clear winner (even had her own share of ass kicking) and Taiga the deserving loser. And rather than being a better friend to her professed love Yusaka, she goes and falls in love with her dog by spending more time with him.] Ugh. If you can think of such a person who has such a character and had done such things and honestly believe her to be worthy of not just your support but your affection, then you and I are coming from value systems that are 180 degrees out of phase. And that's just Taiga. I'd rather not add to my chores by further expressing my dislike of the dog and Minori who produce this silly love triangle.

But really, basic to a romcom is making your hero and heroine sympathetic at least, if not totally likable. One of the best romcom entries? In the sense that it is different, sure, I can agree with that. But as an endearing one with great replay value, am I to agree with the notion that this ranks with or above Kimi Ni Todoke, Itazura na Kiss, Boys Over Flowers, Kare Kano, Video Girl Ai, Fruits Basket, Ai Yori Aoshi? No way! Even RahXephon's love story component, with Ayato's lingering memories, Haruka's irrepressible will to pursue, and Hiroko's tragic development, is more worthy of support than that trio of cowards who save for one couldn't rise above their fears and insecurities.
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Blood-



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:42 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz wrote:
a ton of irrelevant stuff.


Dude (or dudette) if you can't follow a simple line of discussion, you shouldn't bother trying to participate. I don't care what your personal of opinion of Toradora! is. I don't care what your personal opinion of BlahXephon is. I don't care not because I'm an insensitive slob; I don't care BECAUSE YOUR OPINION OF THOSE SHOWS IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE POINT I'M MAKING.

See if you can follow this - if you can't, try to get somebody who is better at dumbing stuff down than I am:

For anybody to say that they can't understand why a whole bunch of people think a show is great is an ignorant statement. What they are really saying is, "You feel differently about a show than I do and I find that unfathomable." Can you not perceive the utter arrogance of a position like that? I hope this is finally starting to sink in with you, but given your past posts I have a feeling you'll just spout a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the subject I'm interested in.
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