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REVIEW: Toradora! Volume 2 Premium Edition


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khryoleoz



Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 157
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
khryoleoz wrote:
Now I'm confused. Are ideas expressed in "opinions" not subject to criticism since they don't bear facts?

Out of a profound interest in the terminology you have selected here, might I ask whether the term "non-cognitivism" is one with which you are acquainted?

I'm a cognitivist. Or more specifically, I don't subscribe to a non-cognitivist notion that we haven't the means or capacity or that there exists no way to reason for determining objective truths that should say something about what's normative, simply believing that what people in fact do do is what's normal. Or are you saying that I'm applying morality standards to an area where I shouldn't be and the muddy lens through which I watch Toradora keep me from holding the same opinion?

Zin5ki wrote:
Quote:
As dtm42 pointed out, it's one thing to say one liked the series, another to make a comparative evaluation and form the conclusion that it is the best over other entries, unless that expression means nothing more than that of approval

As I suspect you may already know, again in virtue of the language you are using, there exist at least two mature theories on the matter that would vindicate this notion. I, for the record, am quite fond of them.

I appreciate what you ascribe to me, but I really don't know what you're trying to convey. Vengeance is your prerogative and you can have that by keeping me ignorant about the two theories you have in view of which you are fond, and how one or both theories vindicate the notion that Toradora is indeed the best series over others. Or, you can enlighten me and we might actually become friends.


Last edited by khryoleoz on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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khryoleoz



Joined: 21 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:13 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Dude (or dudette) if you can't follow a simple line of discussion, you shouldn't bother trying to participate. I don't care what your personal of opinion of Toradora! is. I don't care what your personal opinion of BlahXephon is. I don't care not because I'm an insensitive slob; I don't care BECAUSE YOUR OPINION OF THOSE SHOWS IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE POINT I'M MAKING.

See if you can follow this - if you can't, try to get somebody who is better at dumbing stuff down than I am:

For anybody to say that they can't understand why a whole bunch of people think a show is great is an ignorant statement. What they are really saying is, "You feel differently about a show than I do and I find that unfathomable." Can you not perceive the utter arrogance of a position like that? I hope this is finally starting to sink in with you, but given your past posts I have a feeling you'll just spout a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the subject I'm interested in.

I didn't share my views for your sole benefit. I'm simply voicing my opinions in lieu of what dtm42 is said not to have made any. First, I don't look at dtm42 as an arbiter of values, so there's no need for me to consider what was said as arrogant because he can't fathom how others can be sooo feeble-minded or devoid of rationality or whatever that they can think Toradora is the best series over other romcoms. Without asking for a treatise on his reasons, I simply accept that according to what was said he has a valuation system in which Toradora falls short. It was easier for me to sympathize because Toradora fell short of my own. So why is this arrogant and an occasion for him not to share that judgement call with others? Sure words mean things, but I'll give the benefit of a doubt that what was meant by the statement really was that Key and others who defend the series do so because they are too dull. Sometimes, we take offense at things that are said too easily. The moment dtm42 runs for Congress, wins, then writes and tries to have passed a bill that requires me to express opinions that follow his own under threat of fines and jail time is when I'll take offense and try to vote him out of office and elect others to overturn that legislation. Until then, I would just rather try and see where people are coming from, support them where I'm in agreement, challenge them where I'm not.


Last edited by khryoleoz on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:39 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz, no double-posting.

Megiddo wrote:
I transcribed Minorin's conversation with Ami long ago (it uses the fansub translation, so if the official translation is noticeably different, do tell me as that could be a problem here).
spoiler[Minori: You know, I wanted to tell you this a long time ago.
Ami: Huh? What is there left to say after all that?
Minori: Actually, there's a... ghost in that gap!
Ami: Seriously?
Minori: It appears between those two vending machines. I heard it was a heartbroken girl who...
Ami: Why didn't you tell me earlier?
Minori: But nothing has happened so far, right?
Ami: Huh?
Minori: I think ghosts have their own personality too. They'll only appear to people who they want to see and understand them. I think I've seen a ghost before (flashback to Minori and Ryuuji at the villa looking at the stars), however... I don't want to yearn and get caught by something I cannot see and lose the things I can see. That's why..!
Ami: You talk too much, I don't want to hear the whole thing.
Minori: You'll understand after you've heard the whole thing!
Ami: Really? You want to say that if I just watch and don't interfere, everything will turn out fine, right? Whatever, talking to you feels like having a period.
Minori: I won't hesitate anymore! I will look forward and try to get what I want!
Ami: Gosh, shut up.
Minori: I won't hesitate anymore, I swear! I swear! I definitely won't! ]


There are two lines that are significantly different in the official subs, and the second one in particular makes a huge difference in the interpretation of the scene, as it's the scene's defining line. I have bolded them above and put the official transcriptions below:

spoiler[Ami: So if I had just stood by and watched, if I hadn't brought anything to the surface, things would have turned out perfectly?
. . .
Minorin: My mind is clear now! I'll keep my head on straight and focus on what I can see!]


The way you had it written, I can certainly see now how you were interpreting the scene the other way, but this official translation is, I think, far more consistent with the rest of what Minorin says and the actions she takes. It is my evidence for how I am interpreting things.
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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:43 pm Reply with quote
@ khryoleoz - well, what can I say? My position is this: I have no problem with anybody saying, "I didn't like show ______ for reasons a, b, c, etc." That is just one person giving their opinion. But as soon as that person goes beyond giving their personal opinion and says, " I didn't like show ______ AND I don't see how you could" they are simply being a-holes. But good for you if you don't find that kind of attitude a-holish, I guess.
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khryoleoz



Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 157
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:00 pm Reply with quote
But it didn't seem to me that he went beyond opinion. What he might think about others who don't share his opinions is more opinion. Yeah, some provocative things were added, and different people will react to degrees of provacation differently I guess. I'm more interested in whether you would agree with dtm42's or my reason for not liking Toradora, or at least show us where we might be missing out by having amplified a tiny detail of it where we shouldn't have or didn't need to.
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Blood-



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:12 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz wrote:
But it didn't seem to me that he went beyond opinion. What he might think about others who don't share his opinions is more opinion. Yeah, some provocative things were added, and different people will react to degrees of provacation differently I guess. I'm more interested in whether you would agree with dtm42's or my reason for not liking Toradora, or at least show us where we might be missing out by having amplified a tiny detail of it where we shouldn't have or didn't need to.


Whereas I'm not interested in challenging anybody who doesn't like Toradora! nor am I interested in advancing my own reasons for liking it. I fully accept that there are those who didn't find it as delightful as I did. Life goes on.
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mudduck454



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 303
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:57 pm Reply with quote
time for me to stir the pot a little more,

this whole thing with minori and what she said, and what it really means is stupid.....

because if you remember...

spoiler[she asked him a question as to whether or not he was going to run after tiaga or not, during that scene, and of course he chose to run after tiaga, which basically tells minori that he has finally chosen which one he truly wants, and now she helps him run after tiaga, and after they do not find her, she takes the time to finally tell him how she feels, because she knows now, how things are going to pan out, and then as a goodbye gesture she puts her hand in to a fist and to make it less noticeable she gently punches him in the lips and plays it off as if it is encouraging him to go after taiga, but in reality she was using it for her to have at least one kiss from ryuuji, even if it was just an indirect kiss. so in reality she did go after what she wanted, but instead of telling him how she felt, she gave him the choice between running after taiga, or staying with her, that is why some misinterpret the 2 scenes]

and you call that inconsistent???

but on another note, sure in my opinion toradora may be one of the best, but not the best, if we want to go with staying power over the next 15 years, then I think toradora will be remembered, but it will always be trailing behind my number one show, and that is the tenchi series, it is because of that show, we have shows like toradora, but it is also because of tenchi, we have a lot of crappy harem shows as well. oh well take the good with the bad... Twisted Evil
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Ingraman



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1049
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:11 pm Reply with quote
Takeyo wrote:
Why NISA decided to have the episodes start automatically is beyond me.


I was somewhat surprised that the disc started playing the episodes without having to pass through the menu, but since there's no need to choose a language option, there's no real reason to go to the menu by default. If you don't want to see the first episode on the disc, then it only takes a press of the 'menu' button.

If that wasn't the reason, then maybe NISA was following the Japanese practice of starting the program immediately upon loading the disc (DVD or BD). I think that every R2 disc that I've encountered worked that way.

Both disc start-up methods are 'normal' to me, so I didn't have any issues with it, but I did think that it was interesting. ^_^
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Takeyo



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Hmm. I've never watched an R2 disc before. Given NISA's market strategy, I can totally see them trying to replicate the Japanese experience.
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reanimator



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1275
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:12 pm Reply with quote
Theron Martin wrote:
Volume 2's release comes in the same format as volume 1's... which come with an oversized hard-bound book in a sturdy, oversized cardboard artbox which features nice cover art but is still wholly impractical for storage amongst other DVDs...


That's why it is called Premium Edition. It's designed to be highly desirable to hardcore collectors. It's something that Japanese companies are notoriously good with. I still have that Final Fantasy 7 movie premium edition which is the size of a large brief case. Even Japanese video game limited edition packaging designs are like this all the time, no just Anime.

That reminds me. Did NIS licensed Toradora or do they have partial ownership of the title? If NIS licensed Toradora, then they're doing far better job offering collectible packages than other companies.

Theron Martin wrote:
Many complaints have been voiced about the binding of the book being “crackly,” however.


Crackly? Isn't most hardcover books "crackly" to begin with? I wonder if some people are trying to scan the book, thus damaging the fragile binding.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:18 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
Crackly? Isn't most hardcover books "crackly" to begin with? I wonder if some people are trying to scan the book, thus damaging the fragile binding.


No, I can attest to this from personal experience just on opening up a fresh book. The book in the first set barely made any sound, but on this one it's quite noticeable.

And the problem with doing the Japanese-styled premium release here (i.e. in the U.S.) is that this isn't Japan. Collectors and fans have different expectations over here. If NIS doesn't adjust, they may find themselves in the same problems down the road that Bandai Visual eventually found themselves in.
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 636
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:27 pm Reply with quote
khryoleoz wrote:
But it didn't seem to me that he went beyond opinion. What he might think about others who don't share his opinions is more opinion. Yeah, some provocative things were added, and different people will react to degrees of provacation differently I guess. I'm more interested in whether you would agree with dtm42's or my reason for not liking Toradora, or at least show us where we might be missing out by having amplified a tiny detail of it where we shouldn't have or didn't need to.


I think what dtm42 was trying to implicate was that Toradora's hype is insane because it's romcom. And, apparantly, a quality romcom doesn't make a difference to him.
Simply saying one highly regarded mecha series is better than a romcom... and that's that, doesn't exactly portray his thoughts better than people's reactions.
If we are talking strictly romcoms, and nothing more, then yes: Toradora is something to be respected.

And I assume that the reviewers of ANN(as well as critics in general) keep in mind that a specific genre can ONLY do as much as it's layout can allow.
Yet... that doesn't mean exceptional things come around that, while not flip-turn the concept, will still leave people shockingly impressed.
That's what I interpret Key's "A" as: something exceptional that's from an area that is thought to have no surprises.
Granted, I'd like to see a harem ver. of Toradora!

You can't necessarily compare this with a series like Kare Kano or Kimi ni Todoke, because their concepts are exceptional from the get go.
Toradora's concept is generic but demonstrates early promise of depth and payoff. Both are delivered.

In a way, I find dtm42's reaction of Toradora to be similar with Erin's of Casshern Sins.
They dislike them and their opinion isn't likely to be altered by anyone, any time soon.

What ultimately prevented me from giving this series my utmost respect was what many could consider nitpicking. Or just some things I thought could've been altered a bit.
I definitely walked away MUCH happier than I did with Clannad After Story!!!
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Wrathful



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 372
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:05 am Reply with quote
Otaking09 wrote:
Reminded me of how they can just... disregard a girls sense of realism. I'd like someone to tell me if they've met someone like her. Better yet, could someone please describe the girl's "attractive" elements?


Anime like any other forms of media is an escape from reality. I don't expect to see the real girls act like those heroines or moe girl from animes do. To be fair, damn near 80% of heroines are mostly moe and they are going to be as long as there are viewers that like those kinds of characters. I think just considering how many moe shows there are, I guess I'm not the only one who'd like a girl like Minori. I wasn't too fond of Ami because that's the type of girl you see in real life anyway. Beauty is in the eyes of beholder and so people's taste is different.

At least she makes up with the major personality change like most other teens in second part of the show. I was quite disappointed with the latter part Minori Kushieda played. She had gone a drastic makeover just to push to the conclusion. It seems she was rather used as a vehicle for a forced romance than a character. To be honest with the exception of Ami and obviously the main characters, the secondary characters were pretty much the typical archetypes of weird girl and just a normal and average high school student. Oh good god, Ryuuji's mom annoyed the hell out of me.

I like the show even with all these negative points. It's a romantic comedy executed well. I usuallly don't enjoy them but it had its good moment. I want to say I liked the drawing style with that thick black outline around the characters. I have to say it's overrated but I guess it deserves its hype considering how it did everything well and pretty much casting very well-known seiyuus despite the cliche introduction and closer.
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khryoleoz



Joined: 21 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:36 am Reply with quote
Taking the series overall, I wouldn't argue against the writing having been exceptional with what it did end up doing with its characters. I'm still biased against both Taiga and Minori. They just really rubbed me the wrong way. But I loved Sumire. My wish for more Sumire screen time is denied, but the series had become satisfactory with the closing of that arc.

Regarding After Story, I'm much happier with the end results! It HAD to end that way! That other ending would have been totally unacceptable!
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:39 am Reply with quote
Otaking09 wrote:
I think what dtm42 was trying to implicate was that Toradora's hype is insane because it's romcom. And, apparantly, a quality romcom doesn't make a difference to him.


But I don't think it is a quality RomCom. It can't be. If Toradora! is one of the best shows of its type, then that whole genre is in pretty dire straits.

But what specifically is better?

I thought both Kaichou wa Maid-Sama and Kimi ni Todoke were seriously better. Yeah, both had numerous flaws, but then what does that tell you about the quality of Toradora!? Clannad has been very enjoyable, with far superior drama and comedy than anything I saw in Toradora! (either in episode format or by way of YouTube). NANA did the realism almost perfectly. Those are just the RomComs slash RomCom/Dramas that I have personally watched. If I consider the shows and Anime that do one or the other better, then the sky's the limit.

I am surprised that my off-the-cuff response about RahXephon engendered so much discussion. I certainly didn't mean for the thread to go in such an odd direction, however I am not sorry it did. That's because it resulted in this gorgeous quote being posted:

Shenl742 wrote:
Although I've yet to see Toradora, I don't know if I can watch it now, because the idea that liking it can make dtm42's opinion of me lower causes a deep, existential crisis in my heart


I can say without a trace of sarcasm that this witty and hilarious remark made my day. Yes, even I have a sense of humour.

Cheers mate, full credit.
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