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REVIEW: Toradora! Volume 2 Premium Edition


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Bento-Box



Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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Location: Florida
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:39 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

What do you love about Toradora!? What makes you think it is so amazing?

The characters and how they are developed coupled with a believable series of events that stick to the main plot while delivering a reasonably paced show with a solid ending.

Quote:
What was the first episode that truly convinced you that you were watching something special?

I think once Kawashima showed up and revealed her true colors which resulted in spoiler[slapping the snot-nosed model across her face] I knew I was watching something good. The series continued to surprise me every few episodes right up until the end. I could never fully predict where the series was headed.

Quote:
In what way does it transcend its genre conventions?

Again, this would go along with brilliant characterization. Each character not only had personal goals and aspirations, but had logical opinions about other people and things. The series was never about "meet Taiga, she's the Tsundere" or "meet Minorin - she's the jock" like shows like Nyan Koi heralded. It even had the potential to accidentally slip into the ever expanding borderline harem classification and didn't by avoiding stereotypical characters and providing them with an arsenal of thoughts, feelings, and body language to back them up.

Quote:
Is there any scene that to you exemplifies its quality?

There are many for this series. Too many, in fact, to list. A few...
spoiler[Taiga and Ryuuji end up on the other side of the scare tactics] - I had a feeling something else was going to happen in these scenes, but I had no clue that spoiler[Kawashima would be in on it].
Another - spoiler[Kiss me one more time scene] - absolutely touching. I teared up quite a bit.
spoiler[Taiga's entry in the beauty pageant when she realizes her father is not there] - I loved Ryuuji's and Minorin's reactions.
Just one more... spoiler[The race] - I was completely captivated by Ryuuji's and Minorin's desire to spoiler[ be there for Taiga even to the point that they helped each other across the finish line.]

Quote:
Where would you place Toradora! in a list of notable and/or recent Anime RomCom titles?

Of all the RomCom titles I've seen, I would rank it #1, unless we're including Card Captor Sakura (don't be hatin', this series has a special place in my heart and I'm very biased when it comes to CCS)
- at that point, Toradora! would fall to #2.
At #3 is Spice and Wolf followed by B Gata H Kei (if H is allowed), Kimi ni Todoke and Ookamisan to Shinchinin no Nakamatachi and then Tenchi if that can be included. Ouran, though yaoi isn't my cup of tea, would also be somewhere high on the list simply because of the amount of humor. To be honest, I really haven't seen a ton of RomCom (or at least I don't think I have...) so this list would probably be extremely short.

Shows that I think wouldn't be included are Shakugan no Shana, FMP, Slayers, and anything else with a substantial amount of action.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:27 pm Reply with quote
Bento-Box wrote:
dtm42 wrote:

What do you love about Toradora!? What makes you think it is so amazing?

The characters and how they are developed
I could agree to this, if only the author didn't spoiler[end up having Taiga confess to Ryuuji via indirect methods.] That seemed entirely counter-intuitive to the story and actually showed that Taiga hadn't honestly progressed that much, spoiler[only being able to confess after she thought that Kitamura was carrying her, and not Ryuuji].
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:51 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
If this persists much longer further action will be taken. You want to disagree with others? Then start disagreeing in a civil fashion and learn to respect the opinions of those that don't think exactly the same as you.


Oh, so you're talking to me again?

Look, I'm going to think they are all idiots who are not worthy of my respect. Yes, worthy, because being treated with respect is not a right. If I want their respect I have to earn it and if they want my respect then they have to earn it. Respect doesn't come out of a convenient dispenser like paper towels or soda. You using threatening language isn't going to change that, and you cannot force me to respect people whom I don't already unless you kidnap and brainwash me. You have my IP number, go ahead and track me down.

But, you can dictate what I say, so I'll at least tone down the language I actually use. Although, to be fair, I've already being doing that thus far. I guess moreso.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:03 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Keonyn wrote:
If this persists much longer further action will be taken. You want to disagree with others? Then start disagreeing in a civil fashion and learn to respect the opinions of those that don't think exactly the same as you.


Oh, so you're talking to me again?

Look, I'm going to think they are all idiots who are not worthy of my respect. Yes, worthy, because being treated with respect is not a right. If I want their respect I have to earn it and if they want my respect then they have to earn it. Respect doesn't come out of a convenient dispenser like paper towels or soda.


You're right in that respect is something that should be earned...

but at the same time it's common human decency to believe that someone you have no preconcieved notions about deserves the benefit of a doubt because no one is a mind reader and to mention the oft-quoted adage, "you can't judge a book by it's cover".

Just going around and automatically labeling every person you see as "idiot, idiot, idiot" untilt they say something intelligent or profound, or at the very least agree with you, just seems like an incredibly sad and depressing way to look at life, and just not progressive at all.

People in general are just so much more than their likes and dislikes, someone who thinks Toradora is the bees knees may still be a wonderful husband, a great mother, an awesome teacher, or someone's good friend, even if you absolutely hate the show and think their opinon is wrong.

Just making automatic negative assumptions about people on a message just feelsl like something that takes so much more effort than just giving the benefit of a doubt.
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Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:10 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Bento-Box wrote:
dtm42 wrote:

What do you love about Toradora!? What makes you think it is so amazing?

The characters and how they are developed
I could agree to this, if only the author didn't spoiler[end up having Taiga confess to Ryuuji via indirect methods.] That seemed entirely counter-intuitive to the story and actually showed that Taiga hadn't honestly progressed that much, spoiler[only being able to confess after she thought that Kitamura was carrying her, and not Ryuuji].


I guess it depends on what you view as character development. To me, Taiga's main arc is to go from being a "shield's up" person to one who is willing to take the gamble of accepting somebody into her life. So the fact that she still cannot make a direct confession - a trait she shares with about 99.9% of all anime characters, it would seem - isn't particularly material.
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Bento-Box



Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:21 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Bento-Box wrote:
dtm42 wrote:

What do you love about Toradora!? What makes you think it is so amazing?

The characters and how they are developed
I could agree to this, if only the author didn't spoiler[end up having Taiga confess to Ryuuji via indirect methods.] That seemed entirely counter-intuitive to the story and actually showed that Taiga hadn't honestly progressed that much, spoiler[only being able to confess after she thought that Kitamura was carrying her, and not Ryuuji].


I didn't 100% care for that method spoiler[ of confession from Taiga], but it is what it is. Sure, it was a little cliche and unoriginal, but, in comparison to the rest of the series, not too bad of a dent to waiver my opinion. Smile
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
What do you love about Toradora!? What makes you think it is so amazing? What was the first episode that truly convinced you that you were watching something special? In what way does it transcend its genre conventions? Is there any scene that to you exemplifies its quality? Where would you place Toradora! in a list of notable and/or recent Anime RomCom titles?


Dude, you act like you're the only person who can see the flaws. Remember: it's a romcom!

Every question you've posted above I've said once upon a time about Clannad/After Story.
There's many things I strongly dislike about that show. I even remember yelling at the tv, mumbling to myself in disgust over thespoiler[RahXephon-class "let's rewrite everything so everyone can be happy!" ending... At least End of Evangelion makes more of point by not coming up with a roundabout way of "living happily ever after".]
My point? Romcoms are similar to moe shows. In that the industry has done SO much, so frequently, and with such lack of inspiration, that people like Key and Carl are gonna MORE than mildly impressed with something like Toradora.

You asked what way it transcends? TBH, it doesn't, and that's whats a bit fascinating. It doesn't use a strange human concept, or have a funny, yet enticing new premise to jumpstart it's goodness. It, literally, uses anime tropes(tsunderes, not-so-delinquents, models, silly girls, and "nice guys") to fuel it. It's automatically interesting, because it's proof that the potential was there all along, and yet... why hasn't it been done before?

Where would I place Toradora? Amongst "special" romcoms? Or common romcoms?
All I'm gonna say is that, Kimi ni Todoke has impressed me in ways I haven't in a while.
Granted, I haven't seen We Were There, Lovely Complex, Boys Over Flowers, Maison Ikkoku, Kimigure Orange Road, Maid-Sama, etc.

But dtm42, why are you so angry? When it's all said and done, Toradora is just a TV show. It's really nothing worth hating someone over. There's a thing called "ignoring", something people do when they get agititated and want to save themselves pain.
You don't have to respect people for whatever reasons you choose, but you should be considerate just because it's the right thing to do.
Take it however you want.
You are not going to convince people over ANYTHING. And if you wish to provide "food for thought", then... try a non-force feeding method.

Believe it or not, I do like your opinions dtm42, and I'd like to see a more... rational statement from you.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:30 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Keonyn wrote:
If this persists much longer further action will be taken. You want to disagree with others? Then start disagreeing in a civil fashion and learn to respect the opinions of those that don't think exactly the same as you.


Oh, so you're talking to me again?

Look, I'm going to think they are all idiots who are not worthy of my respect. Yes, worthy, because being treated with respect is not a right. If I want their respect I have to earn it and if they want my respect then they have to earn it. Respect doesn't come out of a convenient dispenser like paper towels or soda. You using threatening language isn't going to change that, and you cannot force me to respect people whom I don't already unless you kidnap and brainwash me. You have my IP number, go ahead and track me down.

But, you can dictate what I say, so I'll at least tone down the language I actually use. Although, to be fair, I've already being doing that thus far. I guess moreso.


The language isn't the only issue, and your unwillingness to discuss and demand people simply see things your way while treating them in an aggressive matter is the issue. I'm not telling you that you have to respect the people, I'm telling you that you have to be respectful of their right to an opposing viewpoint and stop demanding that all discussions favor your personal point of view.

Also, if you have issue with the moderation that has been handed out then take it to the feedback forum where it belongs instead of insisting you get the last word and veering the topic off course more. Stop trying to turn threads where a moderator has addressed your actions in to threads discussing that and your actions thus making them off-topic, and only adding to your offenses. This thread is about Toradora, if you want to discuss the rules and moderation then take that someplace relevant.
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Bento-Box



Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:40 pm Reply with quote
Otaking09 wrote:

You asked what way it transcends? TBH, it doesn't, and that's whats a bit fascinating. It doesn't use a strange human concept, or have a funny, yet enticing new premise to jumpstart it's goodness. It, literally, uses anime tropes(tsunderes, not-so-delinquents, models, silly girls, and "nice guys") to fuel it. It's automatically interesting, because it's proof that the potential was there all along, and yet... why hasn't it been done before?


I agree with that, more or less. The less part would be the "anime tropes" as fuel. I always thought that the tropes were there to start with, but each of the characters has underlying personality traits that typically do not follow the typical structure for that type of character. Those nuances shine through more and more each episode.

I do agree with you that the formula for the show is pretty simple. That's part of what makes it so delightful and interesting. I, too, watched and wondered why no one had created something that good with so little complexity. Then I realized that producing something simple and light isn't always an easy task. It's definitely harder than it sounds and, for that reason, I have a huge amount of respect for the individuals who worked on this series. They know exactly how to keep the viewer engaged even when there isn't a whole lot actually going on.
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reanimator



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1275
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:46 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
reanimator wrote:
Crackly? Isn't most hardcover books "crackly" to begin with? I wonder if some people are trying to scan the book, thus damaging the fragile binding.


No, I can attest to this from personal experience just on opening up a fresh book. The book in the first set barely made any sound, but on this one it's quite noticeable.

And the problem with doing the Japanese-styled premium release here (i.e. in the U.S.) is that this isn't Japan. Collectors and fans have different expectations over here. If NIS doesn't adjust, they may find themselves in the same problems down the road that Bandai Visual eventually found themselves in.


Okay, I'm not going to question your experience on the book further.

You're right about one thing. This is not Japan. And people have different expectation. Come to think of it, even the Hollywood is doing the same thing with their DVDs. I remember U.S. limited edition Indiana Jones DVD box with the fedora hat when Crystal Skull hit the theaters. I wonder how well that edition was sold...

Sometimes, it's interesting to see a company that runs business differently from other guys. We don't know NIS's business future is going to be bad. It's not Bandai Visual. From what I see, it's a modest video game business making profit from somewhat niche video games. The title is another example of extreme niche product. It's not like millions of US viewers watched it and loved it. Only a very small number of retailers sell the DVD sets. I don't think they have intention of flooding the retail market with unsold anime DVDs. If they sell their premium editions as much as they can afford to print and make decent profit, then mission is accomplished.
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N.R.



Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:16 am Reply with quote
so, NIS is releasing Toradora! in Premium Editions right? What about a regualr edition? Or is the Premium Edition the only edition this series will get in the U.S.?
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:06 am Reply with quote
Don't you just love it when posts go missing without any explanation why? Anyway, as I was saying earlier, the latest thread in the Feedback sub-forum got locked.

Anyway, been mulling the following post over, so here it goes. I will attempt to respond on a one-to-one paragraph basis.

Otaking09 wrote:
Dude, you act like you're the only person who can see the flaws. Remember: it's a romcom!

There's many things I strongly dislike about that show. I even remember yelling at the tv, mumbling to myself in disgust over thespoiler[RahXephon-class "let's rewrite everything so everyone can be happy!" ending... At least End of Evangelion makes more of point by not coming up with a roundabout way of "living happily ever after".]

You asked what way it transcends? TBH, it doesn't, and that's whats a bit fascinating.

But dtm42, why are you so angry? When it's all said and done, Toradora is just a TV show. It's really nothing worth hating someone over. There's a thing called "ignoring", something people do when they get agititated and want to save themselves pain.
You don't have to respect people for whatever reasons you choose, but you should be considerate just because it's the right thing to do.
Take it however you want.

You are not going to convince people over ANYTHING. And if you wish to provide "food for thought", then... try a non-force feeding method.

Believe it or not, I do like your opinions dtm42, and I'd like to see a more... rational statement from you.


Hmm, I know I'm not the only person who can see the flaws of this show. However, I know I'm one of the few. You'd think this would stroke my ego and make me happy that I can see what others cannot, however it just makes me sad. Here are people shovelling on the praise so high they have to use a cherry picker to reach the top, and yet the show barely makes it to mediocre, let alone good, let alone anything approaching a masterpiece.

RahXephon had a superb ending, a culmination of a love story that spanned a decade-and-a-half and a backstory that spanned over ten thousand years. But what is the point of mentioning that series to me in an unrelated thread?

Toradora! doesn't transcend anything (we agree on something), rather it sets a new benchmark for unwarranted hype.

I'm angry because "built" into me (not literally or theologically, thank you very much) is the insistence that the world should be fair and that the world should make sense. This applies to everything, but it also applies to Anime as well. Great Anime should get praised. Crap Anime should get lambasted. The mediocre stuff in the middle should be watched if there is time, or nothing else on that's better, but otherwise they should be ignored. I believe I've used this word before in a another thread at the beginning of the year, but it grates on me.
I looked at Toradora! and I saw how a girl seriously attacking a guy with a sword is played for laughs (and eventual romance), how Taiga is so inherently unnatural in her violence and demeanour, and how Ryuji is a doormat worse than Belldandy. Of course, while I'm watching the first two episodes - and then numerous clips on YouTube - I'm mentally cross-referencing the supremely lacklustre (and that's being generous) material with the rabid reactions from certain prominent members of the forums and ANN staff. My suspension of disbelief is not broken but shattered and then smelted down for raw materials, while the enjoyment factor is . . . I don't have a metaphor that quite captures the specific feeling of distaste that I felt, but hopefully you can supply your own.
So yeah, I'd love to ignore it, but I can't. Not all of the time. Not when people extol the fictional virtues of a substandard series at the top of their lungs, so to speak.
And I see no point of being considerate when I cannot respect them. Yes, I do know that I should not use bad language. But I will not stoop down and say "I didn't like this series but I can see why people would". Not only is that still offensive anyway but I can't see why people would think Toradora! a masterpiece. I just can't. Saying otherwise would be a false platitude.

I haven't given up convincing people over the Internet as a matter of general principle. But with specific cases - and there are many of them in the list which exists in my head - I have indeed resigned myself to being unable to change anyone's minds. Some people are too entrenched in their ways to even bother reaching out to. There will be many who will disagree with me on that, but they're utterly wrong. So I don't try and force feed people who have taken what I know to be the wrong position. I just try and burst their bubble when they believe that their precious show - and by extension, their opinion of their favourite show - is nigh-on perfect and universally beloved. And you can't call me a "hater" if I am genuine in my belief.

I just psychoanalysed myself. How rational did you find it?
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Leebo



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:47 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I can't see why people would think Toradora! a masterpiece. I just can't.


Is anyone calling it a masterpiece? People are calling it one of their favorite romantic comedies... a genre not known for being the most acclaimed of anime. There's a lower standard for romantic comedies. They're silly, guilty pleasure shows most of the time.

You know... it's like... if someone said Highschool of the Dead was their favorite zombie show, I wouldn't really get too worked up over it. They're not necessarily saying it's a masterpiece, since zombie stuff has its own set of standards and a particular base they're trying to please.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:15 am Reply with quote
Leebo wrote:
Is anyone calling it a masterpiece?


Actually, as romcoms go, I am calling it exactly that.

dtm42 wrote:
Hmm, I know I'm not the only person who can see the flaws of this show. However, I know I'm one of the few.


Actually, there were many who complained about the end of the series back when it first aired, but I'm rather shocked that none of those people have bothered to comment here. (I was fully expecting a fight on me saying that the quality doesn't drop off at the end.)

Quote:
I looked at Toradora! and I saw how a girl seriously attacking a guy with a sword is played for laughs (and eventual romance), how Taiga is so inherently unnatural in her violence and demeanour. . .


Granted, Taiga's demeanor is a bit of an exaggeration, but you've never actually encountered girls with that kind of mix of violence and arrogance? Visiting a school in an urban American area would be an eye-opening experienced for you, then.

Quote:
. . .and how Ryuji is a doormat worse than Belldandy.


I think previous posts have indicated that you've seen most or all of the series (correct me if I'm wrong on this), so I don't see how you can honestly say this. Does Ryuji not stand up to Taiga on more than one occasion? Didn't he practically slam her into a door in one scene? That's hardly being a doormat.

Quote:
And I see no point of being considerate when I cannot respect them. Yes, I do know that I should not use bad language. But I will not stoop down and say "I didn't like this series but I can see why people would". Not only is that still offensive anyway but I can't see why people would think Toradora! a masterpiece. I just can't. Saying otherwise would be a false platitude.


And that's fine, as I have trouble understanding why people think so highly of RahXephon (amongst others). However, having a lack of respect for someone's viewpoint is no excuse for being rude. (And note that I am not saying you have been in this specific case, but this has been an issue with you and many others in the past and it usually stems from the "lack of respect" issue.)
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Hmm, I know I'm not the only person who can see the flaws of this show. However, I know I'm one of the few. You'd think this would stroke my ego and make me happy that I can see what others cannot, however it just makes me sad. Here are people shovelling on the praise so high they have to use a cherry picker to reach the top, and yet the show barely makes it to mediocre, let alone good, let alone anything approaching a masterpiece.

I'm angry because "built" into me (not literally or theologically, thank you very much) is the insistence that the world should be fair and that the world should make sense. This applies to everything, but it also applies to Anime as well. Great Anime should get praised. Crap Anime should get lambasted. The mediocre stuff in the middle should be watched if there is time, or nothing else on that's better, but otherwise they should be ignored. I believe I've used this word before in a another thread at the beginning of the year, but it grates on me.
I looked at Toradora! and I saw how a girl seriously attacking a guy with a sword is played for laughs (and eventual romance), how Taiga is so inherently unnatural in her violence and demeanour, and how Ryuji is a doormat worse than Belldandy. Of course, while I'm watching the first two episodes - and then numerous clips on YouTube - I'm mentally cross-referencing the supremely lacklustre (and that's being generous) material with the rabid reactions from certain prominent members of the forums and ANN staff. My suspension of disbelief is not broken but shattered and then smelted down for raw materials, while the enjoyment factor is . . . I don't have a metaphor that quite captures the specific feeling of distaste that I felt, but hopefully you can supply your own.
So yeah, I'd love to ignore it, but I can't. Not all of the time. Not when people extol the fictional virtues of a substandard series at the top of their lungs, so to speak.
And I see no point of being considerate when I cannot respect them. Yes, I do know that I should not use bad language. But I will not stoop down and say "I didn't like this series but I can see why people would". Not only is that still offensive anyway but I can't see why people would think Toradora! a masterpiece. I just can't. Saying otherwise would be a false platitude.

I haven't given up convincing people over the Internet as a matter of general principle. But with specific cases - and there are many of them in the list which exists in my head - I have indeed resigned myself to being unable to change anyone's minds. Some people are too entrenched in their ways to even bother reaching out to. There will be many who will disagree with me on that, but they're utterly wrong. So I don't try and force feed people who have taken what I know to be the wrong position. I just try and burst their bubble when they believe that their precious show - and by extension, their opinion of their favourite show - is nigh-on perfect and universally beloved. And you can't call me a "hater" if I am genuine in my belief.

I just psychoanalysed myself. How rational did you find it?


A perfect rational explanation. Thank you very much dtm42.

I know how you feel about seeing flaws no one can see. Hell, Cool and Twisted is so wrapped up into the "dash and flash" plot style of Gundam 00, he doesn't even consider anything else a possible piece of quality.
In terms of "bringing something new to the table", which... many people consider is a must for a potential masterpiece, yes it's TRULY nothing special.

As for the being fair and making sense, yes things should be rated according to what they "do"(execution, and enjoyability" and "have"(a nice premise, or an interesting spin), but we should also look into what it "wants" to do.
Gurren Lagann is a balls-to-the-wall mecha series. It's intended to be a homage to previous things like it. i.e. nothing really new is added. Yet... many consider it to be a masterpiece.

If your enjoyment of a series stems on the characters' freshness or rich clarity or what have you, then... Toradora must've been suicide.
Of course, one of the major points of Toradora is a sincere look PAST, not just ordinary people's initial outward look, but animes' own tropes. It's one thing to make a series about how one person looks like a meanie but is really a sweetie(Kimi ni Todoke for example), but it's another to take the horribly abused tropes of anime and surprise people with their ultimate character eruptions.
Some will call that simply(emphasis on "simply" no crazy twisty plots) amazing.

Me? I used to get SOOO angry over peoples ROARING praise over Clannad.
I still get a little steamed when people say "it's one of the best. End of discussion". Grrrrrr......
If respecting or even being considerate to people who don't or can't see eye to eye with you somehow disturbs your inner morals, then... one should at least come to an understanding.

Yes, the people who blindly cling to a personal exp. that further blinds them from any other(as well as properly judging it), are indeed doing only themselves a disservice.
My previous argument with Cool and Twisted on Gundam 00 is proof enough of that.

What grates me, is when someone will love a show because it's universally beloved. "just because everyone in the world likes it, doesn't make it good" Someone said that, and there's a lot of truth to that.
Being perfect and being universally accepted are two things completely.

I have never considered you to be a hater, just... a bit TOO rash with your statements. I think your boldness in opinions, whether or not I personally agree with them, should be properly focused unto a point.
Make a point, something someone SHOULD be able to see, and then go nuts with that. Make some examples, and a noticeable difference should occur.
If, per chance, NOTHING changes then... you tried. Hopefully, the person(s) will at least think about it and seed some reevaluation.

Your aim is to "burst"(factually prove), not "convert".
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