Forum - View topic
REVIEW: Toradora! Volume 2 Premium Edition


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:22 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
I think previous posts have indicated that you've seen most or all of the series (correct me if I'm wrong on this), so I don't see how you can honestly say this. Does Ryuji not stand up to Taiga on more than one occasion? Didn't he practically slam her into a door in one scene? That's hardly being a doormat.

And that's fine, as I have trouble understanding why people think so highly of RahXephon (amongst others). However, having a lack of respect for someone's viewpoint is no excuse for being rude. (And note that I am not saying you have been in this specific case, but this has been an issue with you and many others in the past and it usually stems from the "lack of respect" issue.)


I have clearly stated that I have watched (more like survived) the first two episodes, and then I have watched quite a number of highly viewed scenes on YouTube. The only reason I watched the second episode is because you assured me it was going to be not just good but truly great, and that episode two was when the series showed its true quality. Well, yes, episode did do that last part, but in the opposite way than what I was led to believe.

And let me tell you, if a girl punched me in the hallway because I wouldn't move out of the way, and if she treated me like garbage, I sure wouldn't be cooking for her no matter HOW cute she physically was. I would not have probably told the school authorities over a single isolated incident, since even nowadays there is still a social and legal stigma attached to a male being assaulted by a female, but I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the bitch.

You can claim that Taiga is misunderstood or has issues, but that does not justify her behaviour. Even if her past does go a little way to explaining why she is so anti-social, she remains thoroughly unlikeable, unsympathetic and a poorly-conceived character. Scratch that last part, her Tsundere nature was obviously designed to appeal to guys who like being kicked in the balls (metaphorically, but perhaps literally, I don't know. I don't want to know).

So anyway, the whole point of the above paragraph is to show why Ryuji is a doormat. He is an abusive friendship/relationship and yet he puts up with it. He even invites her round for dinner every night (and morning if I recall correctly). Sure sounds like a doormat to me. Yes, lots of real-life women (and men) get verbally and physically abused and put up with it, but it is the manner of how Ryuji - and the show itself - treats it that irritates me. It is shown to be something normal, something good, and that's not right.

As I was writing my previous post the thought cropped up - and not for the first time - why I find Taiga to be so unnatural and unsympathetic while I enjoy watching Kaname from the Full Metal Panic! franchise pulling a fan out of hammerspace and sending Sousuke flying. The answers are obvious, and quite simple. The first is execution; there's no need for further elaboration. The second is that slapstick comedy (ha ha ha, she whacked him into a beach umbrella with a baseball bat) stemming from outlandish setups (LOL, he just pulled a shotgun and blew the watermelon up, and now it's all over her) is what the franchise (but especially Fumoffu) was aiming for in those moments. Not serious drama, or scenes that are supposed to lead to romance.

Key, that you don't like RahXephon is of little consequence to me. You've gotten it wrong on so many other shows that one more - even if it is my most favourite and the best one I've ever had the pleasure to watch - makes me feel kind of meh. It isn't like my opinion of you - which was once quite high before you became, well, the guy you always were but I didn't notice it - can get much lower without you having to commit a major crime.

Otaking09 wrote:
Make a point, something someone SHOULD be able to see, and then go nuts with that. Make some examples, and a noticeable difference should occur.
If, per chance, NOTHING changes then... you tried. Hopefully, the person(s) will at least think about it and seed some reevaluation.


I do occasionally make specific examples. I used to make more but no-one ever listens so I am now loathe to waste my time. Yes, I may be caustic at times, but ignoring valid points because of the attitude of the writer is just childish. People believe what they want to believe, they cling to their beliefs no matter how false they are (usually, the more they are wrong the harder they hold), and I'm darned if I'm going to waste my time anymore than I absolutely have to. You know, to satiate my aforementioned insistence for fairness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 15748
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:17 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I have clearly stated that I have watched (more like survived) the first two episodes, and then I have watched quite a number of highly viewed scenes on YouTube. The only reason I watched the second episode is because you assured me it was going to be not just good but truly great, and that episode two was when the series showed its true quality. Well, yes, episode did do that last part, but in the opposite way than what I was led to believe.

Then I must revise my opinion here, as you're speaking at least partly out of ignorance. While I do firmly feel that Toradora's second episode is one of the best individual episodes that I have seen in the past 2-3 years, evaluating an entire series on just two episodes plus a few choice later scenes is like evaluating an athlete based only on his/her warm-ups.

Quote:
You can claim that Taiga is misunderstood or has issues, but that does not justify her behaviour. Even if her past does go a little way to explaining why she is so anti-social, she remains thoroughly unlikeable, unsympathetic and a poorly-conceived character. Scratch that last part, her Tsundere nature was obviously designed to appeal to guys who like being kicked in the balls (metaphorically, but perhaps literally, I don't know. I don't want to know).

So anyway, the whole point of the above paragraph is to show why Ryuji is a doormat. He is an abusive friendship/relationship and yet he puts up with it. He even invites her round for dinner every night (and morning if I recall correctly). Sure sounds like a doormat to me. Yes, lots of real-life women (and men) get verbally and physically abused and put up with it, but it is the manner of how Ryuji - and the show itself - treats it that irritates me. It is shown to be something normal, something good, and that's not right.

If that's the root of your problem with the series then I can certainly understand why you have a dim view of it. The bulk of that content is up front, though; in fact, beyond the first episode I'm hard-pressed to think of a scene where Taiga actually gets physical towards Ryuji (though she does towards some other characters). This is not one of the many series out there where the girl beating up on the guy for various offenses is a running gag.

I also think you're totally missing or ignoring the "dere" part of Taiga's tsundere behavior. Remember, Ryuji initially wanted to have nothing to do with Taiga, but the vulnerable (even pathetic) side of her appealed to his domestic instincts. Part of what made this series interesting for me is that Ryuji is taking the "look beyond the surface" approach with Taiga that is usually reserved for girls in anime series (as is the cleaning fetish). He comes to understand and appreciate Taiga because, in a sense, she is outwardly expressing many of his own (and not always acknowledged) frustrations with family, perception, and relationships - and that is something that is only touched upon in the first couple of episodes, so seeing the whole series is necessary to fully appreciate that.

But you clearly hate characters like Taiga, so I suppose it's pointless to spend any more time trying to lay out a case here.

Quote:
As I was writing my previous post the thought cropped up - and not for the first time - why I find Taiga to be so unnatural and unsympathetic while I enjoy watching Kaname from the Full Metal Panic! franchise pulling a fan out of hammerspace and sending Sousuke flying. The answers are obvious, and quite simple. The first is execution; there's no need for further elaboration. The second is that slapstick comedy (ha ha ha, she whacked him into a beach umbrella with a baseball bat) stemming from outlandish setups (LOL, he just pulled a shotgun and blew the watermelon up, and now it's all over her) is what the franchise (but especially Fumoffu) was aiming for in those moments. Not serious drama, or scenes that are supposed to lead to romance.

Your timing here is curious, since I was just rewatching FMP on Blu-Ray yesterday in preparation for an upcoming review. (Upgrading to BR on that one is a waste of money, BTW.) While I've always been a big fan of that franchise and do like Kaname as a character, she isn't an ounce less acerbic than Taiga is and is far more physically abusive toward Sousuke. Granted, Sousuke earns most of what he gets, but even with his duty to protect her factored in, he's no less of a doormat towards Kaname over the course of FMP than Ryuji is towards Taiga over the course of TD.

Quote:
Key, that you don't like RahXephon is of little consequence to me. You've gotten it wrong on so many other shows that one more - even if it is my most favourite and the best one I've ever had the pleasure to watch - makes me feel kind of meh. It isn't like my opinion of you - which was once quite high before you became, well, the guy you always were but I didn't notice it - can get much lower without you having to commit a major crime.

I actually found this rather amusing. Considering how little we see eye-to-eye on things, this doesn't bother me one bit. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Darksorrow29



Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 411
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:48 am Reply with quote
This is kind of late but I just wanted to say I highly enjoyed reading this review by Theron Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Seraphim_Alchemist



Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Camuy, P.R. (US)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Finally checked out the whole show, loved it.... although I wasn't happy with the decisions they took but that's just me. I really liked Minori over Taiga. Razz

By the way, does the source material differ in any way?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger My Anime My Manga
The Lost Prophet



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Australia, Adelaide
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:31 pm Reply with quote
I find it amusing that people argue about not liking it and bring logical points to the table when really, how people feel about the show is almost entirely subjective. I personally loved it enough to overlook any of those flaws, they can't cater to everyone and they are only human. If you didn't enjoy it and a large amount of people did, it might just be you and not the anime Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 7 of 7

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group