Forum - View topicANNCast - Lance, A Lot
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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They are streaming the show in its entirety, its just not up permanently. If they pick up the show, they'll get to decide whether or not it streams permanently. Unless you assume that the contract is written to given Funimation permanent streaming rights with no deadline to acquire the full rights before they go on the market, which would be a odd contract: production committees value an international DVD license much more highly than they value an international streaming licensed, and indeed many of them turn up their nose to a simulcast in many or all countries served by Crunchyroll.
The "someone picks it up" makes it available to you the old fashioned way, buying a DVD ... whether it also makes it available to you streaming in its entirety at a quality higher than YouTube is entirely up in the air in the current state of the streaming market.
We are talking about a box with "nothing in it" except for some tickets to prize drawings: (1) Funimation upgrades their own site so that offers streaming quality in Canada at least as high as that available on its Hulu channel, (2) Funimation decides to pick up the title, (3) Funimation passes and the exposure of the title increases its chances of getting picked up. The "cost" of the box to you is the chance that Funimation having the stream reduced the prospect of these series getting licensed, which you view as substantial but can not offer any evidence to support, plus the chance that it is passed on by everyone and Crunchyroll is able to get it, which you view as substantial despite the contrary evidence that Crunchyroll is not yet getting a solid majority of anime without another international licensee ~ and when its Tokyo TV and Kadokawa Pictures package deals are factored out, getting a clear minority of series available from other international licensors. The decision to complain about the price of the box versus the value of the contents, with your assessment of the high cost of the box built on assumption and guesswork unsupported by evidence, and your assessment of the low value of the contents also based on assumption and guesswork unsupported by evidence, seems very much like a decision to complain before you know in case things turn out for the best and you lose the chance to complain later. |
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chrisc1978
 Posts: 363 |
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Don't you hate when the dumbest things rub you the wrong way? I replayed that part a bunch of times and it sounds like Lance doesn't want to answer it. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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What it does for me personally is entirely irrelevant in regards to the issue you were originally addressing. You claimed that Funimation's streams would generate free publicity and encourage someone else to license the series. Therefore, what benefit the streams provide to me personally is meaningless (in regards to this specific line of argument anyway). The question is: What benefit do they provide to prospective DVD licensors? I will concede that it is incorrect to assume they would choose to stream the series in it's entirety. That is not a given. However, I dont think you're helping your case by pointing this out. After all, if we instead accept that a DVD licensor might choose not stream these series in their entirety then we must ask: Why not? The only reasons I can think of is that they do not see it as beneficial. This is exactly the opposite of the claim you are attempting to support.
That's not true at all. I provided several reasons why a series that has already been streamed in it's entirety is less likely to be licensed for DVD. You have yet to actually address most of them. Instead you opted to argue that it is a net positive because of the free publicity. I feel I have successfully debunked that claim (see point 1).
Can you expand on this point a bit. I'm not really clear what it is you see in that as such strong contrary evidence that Crunchyroll is not likely to get these series. Again I'll certainly concede that it is possible they wouldn't get it but what exactly makes that outcome probable? I would also ask that you offer evidence to support your position that it is in any way likely that Funimation will revamp their site in a way that suddenly solves all these problems and makes their streams acceptable to me. |
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teh*darkness
 Posts: 901 |
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I don't know if someone else has touched on this already, not reading through all 10 pages to find out, but... OMG, ZAC! The Venture Brothers season 4 will be on Blu-Ray. I mean, come on... if you follow the show, you would know that season 3 was the first one to be in widescreen HD. There's no reason to go back and release the first two seasons on Blu-Ray, unless the series ends and they decide to put them both in one 2-disc set.
"The current plan is to release a standard def DVD of the first 8 episodes sometime between July and October (depending on how quickly we get our acts together to record commentary, dig up special features and design the packaging), and then release both a standard def DVD of the second 8 episodes and a Blu-Ray of the entire 16 episode season in March. But that's all I know right now, so don't ask me any questions about it." That little complaint aside, great show, great interview. Thanks. 
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_V_
 Posts: 619 |
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...Horn edits the manga, that's not even audio. |
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Ingraman
Posts: 1077 |
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Yeah, he does edit the manga. That is true. I consider him to be an Eva expert (along with many other anime/manga/other subjects). I'm sure that he's spoken the name aloud once or twice over the years. If I should be listening to you instead of Carl, please give me a reason to do so. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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chrisc1978
Posts: 363 |
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Lance needs to look up an easy question like what anime sold better.  My first thought was why wouldn't FUNi want to answer my question, I used to comment alot on the FUNi blog did I say something really bad.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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agila61:
What? You're not talking anymore? Alright, I guess that's your right. However, I will have to point out the absurdity in this situation. You accuse me of not actually offering any evidence to support my position (after a dozen posts doing exactly that) and then immediately afterwards, when I finally ask that you offer some reasons to support the assumption in your view instead of just criticizing mine...well suddenly we're done talking apparently. I guess we learned who's views are "based on assumption and guesswork unsupported by evidence" eh. 
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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If he wanted to give an answer that was accurate at that point in time, he did. Suppose he last looked at that list sorted by total sales on Friday the week before. That information could be out of date by the time of the interview. Sure, he'll have looked at that database since then, but it would be sorted and filtered according to what he was working on at the time. How he could have failed to guess that the Mermaid series was going to be a success is beyond me: he said it was "Splash" meets "Married to the Mob" ... and they were both successes.
Chill, dude, I had papers to grade last night before class this morning, I haven't even read your post yet, Let me take a quick scroll down ... First point:
Second point ... what benefit? Free publicity. You try to prove that streams don't provide any publicity benefit from the fact that companies do some streams with deadlines ... now you see it, now you don't. For some inexplicable reason, you want to call an ongoing stream of a catalog title, "streaming in its entirety", which in its plain english meaning would mean that all episodes have streamed at some point, not that all episodes remain available. Certainly a number of DVD distributors adopt the strategy of streaming on a deadline. Nozomi, for example ~ Maria-sama ga Miteru is streaming in its entirety, but is not remaining available on an ongoing basis. Just as, if Funimation finally passes on, say, House of Five Leaves, when it becomes available for North American DVD license, and some other distributor picks it up, and they choose not to stream it on an ongoing basis, it will have been available in its entirety, but will not be available on an ongoing basis. What does the practice of deadline streaming show? Clearly, they are not streaming in pursuit of maximum streaming revenue, since streaming revenue is maximized by having a broad and deep catalog. There are fixes costs in establishing the stream, and very few costs fixed costs to continuing to stream during the entire license period. So if they are streaming on a deadline, that establishes that there is some other benefit that they see in the stream. I propose that the most obvious candidate is low cost publicity, in the sense that the stream is partly self-funding. If the stream is entirely self-funding, then its free publicity. The practice is clear evidence that there is some perceived benefit to streaming over and above streaming revenues, so I await your suggestion of what it is. The evidence is the practice itself, and your argument must be compatible with that evidence. Third point, you answer my observation that your arguments are evidence free by saying you suggested reasons. "reason" is one part of an argument, "evidence" is another part. I did not say your arguments were reasons free: reasons are given in rich abundance. Its just evidence that is omitted. And when challenged on whether you knew the basic things you were claiming, you conceded that its impossible to know them. Fourth point, how do we know that not every Japanese studio and production committee participant is eager to grant international simulcast streaming licenses? Because crunchyroll is happy to stream anything they are willing to license for streaming, and in any country they are willing to license them to stream it to. The CEO has said that explicitly in an ANNcast on this site. (one kind of evidence, a source) Yet Crunchyroll does not have all series that are not licensed by someone else, and the series that they have, they do no have them licensed to stream in all countries outside Japan. (a second kind of evidence, a direct observation) So the actions of the Japanese studios when faced with a business willing to stream everything they broadcast, that directly contradicts the idea that they are all eager to stream. Which is how we know that we cannot know whether or not the title would have gotten picked up anymore, not without a direct source of information from inside the process. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yes, that may be the general issue being discussed but specifically what was being discussed in that line of comments was your suggestion that Funimation's streams provide free publicity. This was a key component of your argument because it supported your claim that my chances were no worse off of having someone license these series for DVD if Funimation streamed them. Obviously what other streams provide for me personally is not relevant to this specific area of the argument so bringing it up in no way serves to refute my point.
That's a very misleading summation of my point. I'm not disputing that it provides publicity. You keep repeating the upsides of streaming but you're ignoring the downsides. If you stream your show for free...you are giving your product away for free. I would definitely call that a downside and while you may or may not agree, evidently many companies do agree and don't see free streaming as a pure positive. I mean come on. If they did, why on earth would they ever stop or limit it? This is what I am suggesting: 1) Many companies do not think such publicity is worth the sacrifice of giving their show away for free at least in it's entirety or indefinitely. 2) If a company wanted to make such a trade-off for publicity, there is no particular advantage to having Funimation do it for them. If for whatever reason they want a show to be streamed they could pretty much just as easily stream the show themselves. Hence there is no significant benefit and a distinct downside to Funimation streaming these shows. All they're doing is giving away sales in the eyes of companies who don't think streaming is worth it and providing a service that the companies who do think it's worth it could do themselves for next to nothing.
Sure, but do they even want it to have ever been available in it's entirety ever and if so, for how long? If it's already been streaming for six months to a year then the 'damage' as some companies may see it, is already done to some extent.
look man, I've said this several times. I conceded those things because they were never things I was claiming to begin with. You simply assumed they were. I don't know why you assumed this. Nor do I know why you are so hung up on this. These kind of absolutes are not required to support my argument.
Yes. That is a decent argument as to why any given show may not be available to Crunchyroll. However, I didn't say anything about 'every studio'. I asked about these shows and this is a very poor argument as to why these noitaminA shows wouldn't be available to Crunchyroll. It is an argument entirely based on the premise that many Japanese companies may not be interested in international streaming. While that may be true in some cases, it clearly is not in these specific cases. This whole discussion centres around shows licensed for international streaming only. So the claim that the companies behind these particular shows might not be interested in licensing them for international streaming only is evidently untrue. P.S. You have not addressed the second part of my request: Offer evidence to support the claim that Funimation will likely revamp their site to both stream to Canada and offer decent quality. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Or to be more precise, because it supported my claim that you have no way to know at this point in time that your chances are any worse off of someone licensing these series for DVD, supposing that Funimation passes on them at the date in the future when they become available.
But I am not agreeing to move the goalposts. You are either defending that you have a basis for complaint or you aren't. So, for example, the Canadian viewer I recently saw in the mania.com electronic distribution forum complain that a Funimation stream was not at YouTube so he or she did not have access to that stream ...they are off to one side of this argument. This argument is about the basis for complaint of the portion of Funimation's target North American audience who are Canadians for whom a stream on YouTube is the same thing as no stream at all. We know that slice of the target audience contains people because you have put up your hand for being in that slice of the target audience.
But those are beside the point to the company behavior in question, since they can't be given away, sold, rented, or hired out to an advertiser with the stream. And some companies clearly feel there is some part of their DVD product that is interfered with by indefinite access. But what does that have to do with the question at hand? Whichever R1 company acquires it for DVD distribution will surely obtain exclusive R1 streaming rights, and then if they views indefinite access as causing more harm than good to DVD sales, they simply don't stream it.
And which specific companies are you saying would be in the market for House of Five Leaves, anyway?
Since "we don't really know any of this for sure" is precisely what I am arguing, the burden of proof that the above is true is on you. Give evidence to support it, that is actual evidence and not more argument based on some different assumption. And for the argument at hand, we are talking about hosting higher-quality-than-Youtube-streams inhouse. The easiest way to stream is on Hulu and YouTube. Suggesting that that is as easy to do as if someone else did it is suggesting that streaming something in-house is a no-risk, no-work undertaking. I think that the recent ANN simulcast adventures is counter-evidence for that one.
Costless activities do not exist. Some routine activities are very low cost, but except for TAN, streaming is not a routine activity for any of the other R1 distributors you see as possibly being in the market for House of Five Leaves and Tatami Galaxy.
And I do not concede that assumption. Give evidence for it.
Its only on being challenged that you made the assumptions and guesswork explicit in the process of defending the claimed effect.
Given that premise, the fact that they have the ability to do it, and by the observed evidence do not do it, is the basis for the conclusion that they are not eager to grant pure streaming licenses to a pure streaming site.
I find that latter implausible on its face, but in any event the burden of proof lies with you.
Neither of use has any way of knowing whether or not the revamp of the site will stream to Canada and will offer quality at least equivalent to ANN, Crunchyroll and TAN. All I am saying is that its possible that the grounds for your complaint will vanish even before the time when House of Five Leaves and Tatami Galaxy would have typically been available for an R1 DVD release. You have no externally verifiable basis for complaining that you don't have what you consider to be a decent quality stream, that you otherwise would have had, because there's no basis for concluding that you likely would otherwise have had a decent quality stream for those series. You have no externally verifiable basis for complaining that you won't have a DVD or what you consider to be a decent quality stream by the time that a DVD release would be available, because there's no basis for concluding that Funimation having the stream now implies a lower probability of either a DVD release or else a decent quality stream by the time a DVD release would be available. You've built a simple mental model about the impact of Funimation taking up a streaming only license, and based on that, worry that Funimation taking up a streaming only license means a lower chance of you getting either what you consider to be a decent quality stream or a DVD release. Fine. When you decide to project that worry into the outside world as a complaint about Funimation picking up a streaming license before it gets the DVD rights, based on a claim that your mental model is in fact correct ... ... rather than projecting it into the outside world by expressing the worry ... ... the burden of proof for showing that your claimed relationship is more likely than the opposite lies with you. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I think you're getting a bit hung up in the term 'indefinitely'. Indefinitely would be the wost case scenario but it doesn't have to be the case for it to be viewed as a negative. Just by streaming the show for however long they do, the harm is already done to some extent. Even if the potential licensor puts a stop to it upon licensing the series for DVD, Funimation has already been streaming the show for a half a year at least. Probably even longer depending on the time from now until this happens. If the company in question doesn't think the added publicity is worth the potential harm of giving the content away for free for that long then obviously this will be viewed as a negative. Based on the streaming habits of all the other R1 DVD distributors, I'd definitely say this applies. None of them consistently make their shows available for free to such an extent. Maybe Viz for their big shounen titles or Bandai for some of their most mainstream shows. Other than that though, I don't see anyone putting their shows up there in their entirety like this for that long.
Not exactly. Remember, we were talking about whether Funimation streaming encourages other companies to license a series for DVD. If there is a DVD, then I don't care how they stream it. I'll just buy the DVD. Whether the streams work for me personally is only really an issue if the series is licensed for simulcast only and the only other company that does that is Crunchyroll who does stream at a higher quality. So no. It wouldn't have to be anything better than youtube streams. That being the case, it seems to me a perfectly reasonable conclusion that any other DVD licensor would be capable of streaming the show themselves. If we're talking about DVD licensors here then they're already subtitling the show. S23 already has a streaming platform set up in the Anime Network. Bandai, Media Blasters and even Nozomi already stream at least some shows through either Youtube or ANN. You yourself said that streaming is essentially 'free' publicity because it generally covers it's own cost. What possible barrier is there to prevent a company from streaming a show if they so desire?
Why would the burden of proof fall on me there? It's absurd to expect me to prove there is no difference. Why don't you offer a single reason as to why them streaming their show with Funimation would be relevantly different from them streaming with Crunchyroll. Funimation has not committed to them at all for a DVD release. They are evidently unwilling to do this at least until after the series is streamed. That being the case, why is letting them stream it in any way superior? If they're not willing to commit to a DVD release until after they stream it, why would they be any less likely to commit to a DVD release after somewhere like Crunchyroll streams it?
Again...No. It's not. Saying I'm required to prove something likely won't happen when there is no reason to think that it will happen is absurd.
Ah, but that's the key term here. If you want to claim that I haven't provided any proof that what I am suggesting is definitely the case then I agree. That's fine. I acknowledge that. Saying though that I have offered no evidence as to what is most likely the case is totally false. In fact, you've got that backwards. I have provided ample evidence to support what is likely. It is you who has repeatedly avoided proving what is likely. That's exactly the problem with your entire argument. All you've done is offer empty hypotheticals. Virtually everything you've said here has been predicated on this same kind of what if scenario. Funi's streams are no good. -But they might revamp them to fix all their problems! Is there any reason to actually think that is likely to be the case? -It's possible! You can't prove that's not the case! Funi is blocking other streamers who might actually do a good job. -But they might be unwilling to license it to Crunchyroll! Is there any reason to actually think that is likely to be the case? -It's possible! You can't prove that's not the case! All of which is fine. I acknowledge again that none of what I have claimed is definitely the case. However, you can't pretend for a second that any of your counter arguments apply to what is most likely the case. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Wow, I was wondering when you'd finally catch on. I like you agila61, you seem like a good egg. But for your own sanity, I would advise you to become better at identifying when an exchange is going down the path of being an utter waste of time. |
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