Forum - View topicANNCast - Viewers Like You VII: Adviewnt Children
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||
|
No time to listen to the long argument for now but a couple thoughts on the short version:
I agree sort of with Vinny about TV (I refuse to call him V so I have dubbed him Vinny). I don't think TV helps boost sales for the actual title aired so much because you're also giving it away for free so there's a trade off. What it does do that is really key is create new fans. It's a long term thing. When I first watched Gundam Wing on TV I didn't run out and buy the DVDs. It did lead me to eventually watch SEED and Inuyasha and that lead me into other stuff and that lead me to buy DVDs. I think this is something you need. Long term, you need to bring in new fans. That said, I recognize that maybe this just isn't feasible in todays world with today's industry. So I don't know. I don't know what the solution is. On the issue of teen fans: I don't think the teens are a problem. They're silly teenagers and that's fine. There's always going to be a big chunk of fans that are just casual teenagers who like Naruto. The trouble is that they're not really progressing into the fandom anymore at any point. I mean, I get what Zac is saying but I have to ask: This whole influx of teens has been going on for a while. So clearly, they're not all teens anymore. So where are these guys? Where are the guys that were silly teens 3 years ago and now should be getting toward college age and be growing out of that teenage phase. I suspect that they're growing out of anime altogether. That's where the industry is failing to create new, adult fans and why I think the balance is increasingly shifting toward teen only as the existing older fans disappear. So why is this happening? I blame the lack of good transitionary anime these days. We have gateway shows like Naruto and Bleach that are popular that get kids into anime initially. There are still good shows once you become a real hardcore fan. But there's nothing to satisfy people in that middle stage when they've outgrown Naruto but they aren't really at a point where they're going to get into something less accessible to the average joe. We need more shows like Trigun, Bebop, Kenshin, Escaflowne, etc. These are shows that you might see as a casual fan and enjoy but at the same time they're shows that are intelligent enough and of a high enough quality that they're not going to completely lose people getting into their late teens. |
||||
|
||||
Penguin_Factory
 Posts: 732 Location: Ireland |
|
|||
This is an interesting point. Personally, I think I'd take a stance close to Zac's in that there isn't an objective way to view artistic creations like this. However, some people take this too far and insist that their own subjective opinions are objectively evident in the work itself, or they insert motivations into the mind of the creator. So it's okay to say "in my opinion that scene where Harry Potter blows up his aunt can be viewed as a metaphor for hyper-inflation in the Weimar Republic", it's not okay to insist that that metaphor is factually present or that JK Rowling intended it to be there. (No, I don't actually think Harry Potter blowing up his aunt can be viewed as a metaphor for hyper-inflation in the Weimar republic). Oh, and on the subject of V and being "too serious" about Eva: frankly, after the endless meltdowns and internet flame wars over piracy and lolicon and moe, it's kind of refreshing to see someone getting obsessive about an actual show for a change. I'll take that over pirate/lolicon fan militancy any day. |
||||
|
||||
|
_Scythe_
Posts: 12 |
|
|||
|
I thought this was a good debate. Both sides seemed to give and take. And each argument had valid points. I don't see something like this as a contest that can be won or lost, as I have seen many of you do.
@V : I think you do need to cut back some on how aggressive you take some stances. Not that its wrong to stand up for what you believe in but there needs to be a respect for those who don't agree. We cant go around like you said goon squading people into our way of thinking. That is taking away the freedom of speech that everyone is entitled to *at least in america*. I do agree that we should look into what the directors original intent was. There is a line when talking about things I have seen people try and use their fan-fiction as if it happened in the series. But you do make many valid points which is why I joined REVA in the first place, and will continue to support it. @Monkey : I know we didn't get off on the right foot with the Tekkoshocon thing. I honestly went to your panel because it was eva related. I didn't even know your name until after the fact. I did give a negative review of the panel that you presented. I meant it to be helpful so the same mistakes aren't made again, I still am not sorry for that because it simply could have been much better. But that is in the past. I have looked at your forum a few times as a guest, as im sure you guys do as well. I have noticed that it is turning from an evangelion forum to a We Hate V forum. Really what is worse a guy who is going out and doing panels/interview, or the fact that most of your threads get derailed over a forums hatred of one guy. I don't see this as much of picking sides I see the eva fandom as a whole. If V does an interview or has a debate we have to look at the points not just Oh I don't like that guy so Im going to tune out everything he says. Or I listened to it but didn't pay attention. That is what causes a divide in the fan base. When we stop listening to each other. What we need to be at is a point of creative criticism, not childish arguments. @Zac : Thanks for having V on I enjoy listening to different views. I did notice that you talked a lot about seeing eva as an art. Then you put it on the category of a simple cartoon. Now to me a cartoon is loony toons a bunch of gag jokes put together. While yes evangelion is an animation, but it has things such as character depth and development, a consistent story and could be in almost any format of story. Animation was just the best way to go about it back in 95'. I doubt you meant it to sound the way I put it, but thats what I think when I hear cartoon. @ everyone : Everyone has their own view. We need to hear these views or else we might as well be talking to ourselves. Why shun information? Because we or our group didn't find it? Who cares where it comes form as long as its informative? Who cares what someone is wearing or what they look like if the information is valid? If aliens came and offered the cure to all diseases, but looked like cats would we not take it? I have heard of claims of V being crazy, but with nothing to back it up. I hear a lot of people say he is wrong but don't say why he is wrong. Really what part of it is crazy? The Tiffany Grant interview? Or how about doing panels with out showing amv's. Maybe everyone needs to stop and think about what crazy is before they make anymore posts. |
||||
|
||||
darkchibi07
 Posts: 5468 |
|
|||
I bet it's due to nervousness thus the unprecedented laughter! You know I was thinking about posting pictures of my purchases just to show thanks. I know there are a few blogs and Youtube videos that actually show off those things. Now, using that to turn into a campaign movement, that's sounds tricky. |
||||
|
||||
_V_
 Posts: 619 |
|
|||
So I'm a "Habitual line-stepper?" @IKillChicken - yes, I agree, that's what I was trying to say: "long term seeding" is essential, even if it doesn't make an immediate boost in DVD sales...though with the way things are now, the companies may simply not be able to. Btw, one thing I"m sorry about is that...for a 10 minute chunk *ending* about 15 minutes before the podcast ended, I was going in circles for a bit: Well, keep in mind that due to time zone differences, it was 1 am for Zac and *almost 4 am* where I was, so I was starting to get a little fuzzy and repeat myself; but the last 15 minutes or so when we got out of our rut (we ourselves realized we were going in circles because we were tired) I think we finished up strong. -->Some people have said I've been too aggressive in pursuing this, and we're trying to tone it down to be rational, but conversely...it seems a lot of people over the years have "aggressively" tried to downplay what the actual creators said. Last edited by _V_ on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:20 am; edited 3 times in total |
||||
|
||||
|
Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
|
|||
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrNLDJ2PwPg For the past 5 or so months, people have been posting "Sustain the Industry" videos to YouTube.com It's been kind of a neat movement. From what I recall, I think this girl started it. Other users have been posting videos monthly too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93MFE5eTGro&feature=related ANN posted about it when it started, but since then, it looks like it's kept going Over at Kuriousity, we have a weekly SwagBag feature, though don't have pics http://www.kuri-ousity.com/2010/11/anime-anime-and-more-anime/ |
||||
|
||||
Unholy_Nny
 Posts: 622 |
|
|||
|
I haven't listened to the V section yet, but from what I've gathered skimming over the thread I'm going to have to agree with Zac. I'm a strict believer in death of the author. (Surprised this hasn't been brought up in the thread already, wondering if it's mentioned in the podcast...)
|
||||
|
||||
Zeguna
 Posts: 66 |
|
|||
|
Wow, I am so excited to hear the V guy segment.
|
||||
|
||||
|
_V_
Posts: 619 |
|
|||
well on that we're obviously going to differ, because... well there's a point in my NYAF panel where I show a slide that says, as I read it off, that: "The Death of the Author...has been greatly exaggerated" I don't think we should argue that to death right here and now, just that we've established you strongly support Death of the Author and I strongly oppose it. Good. Its like saying "I'm fiscally conservative" and "I'm fiscally liberal" at the start of a debate; one side isn't going to convert the other or something. But in the case of Eva, I think it really got taken to an extreme. |
||||
|
||||
|
_V_
Posts: 619 |
|
|||
|
Okay this was a big thing I wanted to say in the podcast and I'm sorry I forgot (it was AFTER 3 AM where I was) :
A major issue with what I'm saying, seems to be the very possibility of saying "that position is wrong". Well...rival academic papers get discredited all the time. I mean something simple like, er....a hundred years ago, historians honestly felt that the Fall of Rome was a dramatic sudden collapse. Over time, this view was discredited, replaced with the view that the *evidence* points out that it was a gradual decline over many decades. I mean if we're really talking about specifically "anime in academia"....academic theories are frequently discredited. So if there's er...some specific academic article fixating on the religious symbols in Eva and interpreting their intended meaning......under normal academic circumstances, wouldn't I be able to write a counter-article pointing out that this was never intended? Isn't the definition of academic merit, that something can survive scrutiny? I won't refuse a challenge on a level playing field: I'm not suggesting that people supporting rival positions be dragged away in the middle of the night....but if their position has been drastically discredited and with little supporting evidence....why keep allowing it in venues of authority? by which I mean....would a major medical conference seriously invite someone to speak who espoused the Theory of Phrenology? Would it be "aggressive" or "unfair" for other medical professionals to ask that this person not be allowed to present their views with such authority? Or like...Evolution vs Intelligent Design Creationism. Evolution has a lot of evidence, Intelligent Design Creationism does not, and has been discredited in academic discourse. Would it then be needlessly "aggressive" to demand that Intelligent Design people, while still allowed freedom of speach in public....should not be allowed to teach their views in schools, have them printed in textbooks, and should not be invited as keynote speakers to academic conferences? Or would we then say that Evolution and Intelligent Design are "art" and therefore, there is no correct answer? I view this as a science, like the science of History: i.e. someone writing a biography of Miyazaki....or a historical analysis of "the Japanese experience in World War 2"....would not make recourse to "art" That said, it's a TV series/movie and therefore IS a "work of art"....so this only complicates matters. Generally speaking, I do think that when it comes to scifi and fantasy fandoms, there is a great deal of artistic freedom and leeway, a wide range of interpretations.....but only to a point. When it contradicts things the author stated clearly....we're not really "explaining" it anymore. I can't stop people from voicing these opinions, but what I want is....to do something new, where we start *making a clear distinction between explanation and interpretation* Just as a Miyazaki biography would be held to a somewhat different standard than "Mononoke interpretation" So the most we should do is be able to say "this is just an interpretation, not grounded in evidence, and could never be considered objective explanation" just on a personal level....I think a book on "The works of Rumiko Takehashi"...should contain at least a few quotes, by Rumiko Takahashi. |
||||
|
||||
Sailor Star Dust
 Posts: 166 Location: US and A |
|
|||
Heh, same here.
Regarding technicalities, Eva is a cartoon. In Japan, ALL animation is referred to "anime", whether it's from Japan or another country. It's America and other countries that make the distinction that "anime" is only Japanese. I agree with you that fandom disputes are ridiculous. Having a difference of opinion is one thing, but we're all fans of Eva, so any "rivalry" is pointless. Eva fans already receive a bad enough reputation as it is. This pointless bickering makes all of us look even worse. (Seriously.) I'm not necessarily expecting Monkey and V to kiss and make up (since it hasn't happened yet), but this is just something for them to consider. And that's all I have say, about that. Last edited by Sailor Star Dust on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||
|
||||
OtakuExile
 Posts: 202 Location: Neo Vegas |
|
|||
|
V, It's great that you are young and passionate but dude!, you are wearing a Guy Fawkes mask, quoting comic lines and college buzz words, are passionate about Evangelion, are quoting Lord of the Rings, are a comic book fan prior and have fractured knowledge of hear say and conjecture.
You are what's wrong with all of this fandom. You are a Hybrid product that has grown with the internet age and the 2000 bubble. You are split between far too many things. Too many goddamn fandoms. Japanese culture and Western culture are like oil and water. It will never fully be accepted by either side. Not now not ever. None of this has changed in the last 3 decades since I got into it. Don't spend your whole life being "that guy", because that is a sad existence. And unless you've lived during, most of the topics you passionately talk about, you are talking out your ass. You are a living Wikipedia run-on, and the people in the backroom can see right through it. You won't be taken seriously. Heh, except the few people in Minnesota. |
||||
|
||||
Gasero
 Posts: 939 Location: USA |
|
|||
|
Am I the only one not interested in hearing people debate about something as convoluted and incomplete as Evangelion?
The fact that there are so many different interpretations to be had from the series proves to me that the writers had little idea of how they were going to finish the series and only made up whatever they could to finish the 26 episodes they were given. Everything after episode 13 of Eva ruined the excitement I had after watching the first half of the series. It reminds me of Lost. The first couple seasons seemed to be building up to some great narrative and backstory to the mystery of the island, but no, that is not what was provided. Instead, things got more convoluted and it made me think the writers were scrambling to find things to at least tie a little bit of the narrative together. You guys keep debating about Eva, I'll be over there enjoying Gurren Lagann. |
||||
|
||||
|
sonickid101
Posts: 132 |
|
|||
|
wow, I listened to the entire 2 hour argument, I dont know what that says about me....but....
It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, it was a respectful debate, and it didn't seem to angry or rude in anyway. (well...) I dont know if I would recommend others to listen, I'm an exception because I'm a weirdo who likes to listen to people argue, (12 angry men being one of my favorite films) as far as me personally, I'm mostly on Zac's side, but I also see were the V guy is coming from to. Fun debate gentlemen |
||||
|
||||
|
Sailor Star Dust
Posts: 166 Location: US and A |
|
|||
Actually, there's something of a theory that the new Eva movies are meant to be satirizing Gurren Lagann (Without getting into 2.0 spoilers, the whole "This is what balls-to-the-wall reckless fighting in mecha battles will really get you." mentality, for instance). Of course, it's too early too tell. And fun fact since we're on the subject of Gurren Lagann, Anno was going to make the new Eva films at Gainax, but Yamaga wanted to make GL so Anno decided to create Studio Kara for his Eva films as a result. The original NGE did have its share of faults (TV25 and TV26, for instance. See this.) although I'm hoping New Movie Edition/Rebuild will make up for that (or at least try to). But honestly, what series doesn't have faults? As amazing as Gurren Lagann was with its MANLY SPIRIT, I felt the character development was somewhat lacking, except for Simon/Kamina/Yoko/Viral. Nia and Kittan were awesome, but struck me as somewhat one-dimensional. |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group