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NEWS: Full Tokyo Assembly Passes Youth Ordinance Bill


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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8193
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:50 am Reply with quote
Conan-san wrote:
Kruszer wrote:


Yeah, I believe this sums the situation up nicely. Seriously, though what a bulls*** law though. As much as I'm sad to see some of the more fanservice oriented stuff get tossed out, I also wonder if this will mean a lean towards more sophisticated works, which I think would be good.
The question then becomes is the law lax enough to allow sophisticated works to address sophisticated issues.
That would depend on what is the agreed definition of "sophisticated" I doubt depictions of any deemed within the catagories listed in the bill would fall into that definition. But as I said before passing this bill, and enforcing it are two entirely different things. I mean how many people have been prosecuted for having such drawings here in the UK since our own similar bill was passed last year? None that I'm aware of, and our law strictly bans publication. This bill in Japan is only restricting sales to under 18s and asking the H doujin mangakas to clean up their act a bit. No publication ban was mentioned anywhere.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:04 am Reply with quote
For those curious how this is going in Japan, here's one parent's opinion on it, quote-unquote in response to a 15-yr-old American teenager:

Quote:

Congratulations for turning out so well (so far) and not having any urge to fulfill any sick fantasies (lets wait and see shall we, given that you are still only 15?) but that whole issue aside - most of us here have been teenagers once and we understand where you are coming from. Totally. I still burn when I think of the mags my mum found in my drawer when I was 16, over 20 years ago now.

However, (I assume) you are a long way yet from becoming a responsible parent, and therefore I don't think you can possibly have any concept of the over-riding drive to protect your children that many parents on here feel(and by children I mean 6 year olds, not 16 year olds) from this stuff that is so readily available in Japan - at childs-eye-level in many cases - in convenience stores. Or visible from the guy sitting next to your 6 year old daughter on the train who seems to think that because it is readily available and little restricted it is OK to let her view it (she was drawn to it as it was a comic book and really upset by what she saw). I am assuming here that you have never actually been to Japan or lived here, so you really don't have any concept of the issue over here.

Nobody "hates" anyone, and most reasonable people don't want to see it banned as such in this thread (as I think I mentioned previously the long-term effects if any are a separate issue). We just want our children protected from it. Unfortunately for you the definition of "child" is an arbitrary one and a 15 year old such as yourself may be far more mature than a 25 year old in some cases. However, a line has to be drawn and unfortunately for you, you are currently 3 years the wrong side of it.

I hear what you are saying, and I understand how you feel. When you become a parent one day you will understand how many parents on here feel about the issue too.

On a separate note, I would actually like to see how the government is actually going to enforce this ban, given that most combini's are staffed by people barely old enough to look at these magazines themselves if the law is passed. I just don't see a 19 year old yelling at a bunch of 15 year olds to get away from the underage section!

I don't want to see these magazines banned, or the content restricted for over 18's - but I WOULD like it to be less obvious wherever we go with the children, and to know that my kids won't be able to (easily) get their hands on it.


This is just one parent's opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. It's just a slice of how it is with people who are actually living in Japan.
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:31 pm Reply with quote
Doesn't this bill encourage the production of more incest laden hentai and porn with underaged subjects?
There are still people who enjoy those types, which is really ANYONE who watches anime with any type of sex scenes since anime characters aren't real people and ages are vague. Nothing about the bill restricts production of hentai of any type since the bill simply puts whatever is deemed to be 18+ into places that sell 18+ titles. This effectively creates a boom and surplus of adult titles which may see prices drop to encourage its production even more. People who are under 18 will still find ways to obtain these titles. We still have the internet after all.

For anyone who disagrees with the existence of any types of hentai and anime porn, or what they deem as taboo content or not, the passing of this bill should anger and disturb them even more.

In fact some anime/manga companies may be forced to do something similar that Disney did; they had separat label aimed at adults and some of those programs would be considered soft porn. But in Japan's case all this soft porn produced under separate labels of companies like Gonzo, Bones, heck maybe even Ghibli, will be actually be hardcore porn.
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 319
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:57 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
For those curious how this is going in Japan, here's one parent's opinion on it, quote-unquote in response to a 15-yr-old American teenager
Ye gods, this is almost word for word identical to stuff that two groups in Australia say, Kids Free 2B Kids and Say No 4 Kids. Their beef is with the 'orrible porno mags, which not only includes Playboy and Penthouse but stuff like Zoo and even Men's Style. Both groups are featured on Australian Christian Lobby's website and have links to anti-choice "feminist" Melinda Tankard-Reist, who is in fact a hardline anti-abortionist and wants everything banned that contains any hint of sexuality. A quick look at her CV confirms her hard right religious background.

This Japanese parent seems to have no idea what the bill entails. She thinks that if this manga exists then a six years old is going to read it or buy it. Just because it sits on a shelf doesn’t mean it has magical powers and is going to corrupt your little darling child. And it isn't going to stop the guy on the train reading it either. Whatever, as long as she thinks the bill helps her parent a bit better. Rolling Eyes
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:33 pm Reply with quote
I'm honestly a bit confused. People are having knee-jerk reactions all across the board. Uh, but from what I've seen...

Are they basically just implementing an age-rating system, albeit an extremely flawed one? It seems there are only 2 categories: for kids and 18+. Either that or "anime is ending because everything is being banned." Which doesn't seem too likely.

I mean, I understand that have sexually explicit mags around every corner at the standard convenience store might be a little jarring...But there are other methods to fix that. This bill is vague; there are loopholes and exploitation points scattered throughout.

Ghidra999 wrote:

They deemd dog fighting videos legal recently, so that argument is bunk now completely. I think an exception is just made for child sexual abuse. I don't blame them. Just as long as its actual children being harmed, it should be illegal. Drawings are not chilrdren and are one of the purest expressions of speech there is.

Unless we're thinling of two totally different things, I assume you mean the push to get crush videos made illegal (and it may have extended into animal fighting territory as well)? If so, it wasn't deemed legal simply because the bill didn't pass. The bill was considered too vague, and would have potentially banned hunting videos and films of that ilk. After that, the makers simply went back to the drawing board so they could tighten the prose and purpose. Obama just signed a law that "[prohibits] interstate commerce in animal crush videos, and for other purposes" on Dec. 9...

Unless you were thinking of something entirely different.
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Ghidra999



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:38 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Unless we're thinling of two totally different things, I assume you mean the push to get crush videos made illegal (and it may have extended into animal fighting territory as well)? If so, it wasn't deemed legal simply because the bill didn't pass. The bill was considered too vague, and would have potentially banned hunting videos and films of that ilk. After that, the makers simply went back to the drawing board so they could tighten the prose and purpose. Obama just signed a law that "[prohibits] interstate commerce in animal crush videos, and for other purposes" on Dec. 9...

Unless you were thinking of something entirely different.


I'm not going to dig this all up. It was a recent Supreme Court decision that deemed California's law against videos of animal cruelty un-constitutional. It was a recent decision, look it up. That's an example of illegal activity on camera being protected free speech.

Yes, they passed another law about "crush videos." But that was after this decision, and that's what usually happens with lawmakers. After cartoon porn of minors was deemed legal by the SCOTUS, lawmakers kept trying to legislate it again afterwards anyways. It takes a while for new laws to be challenged again, so it may give a false appearance of legality.

I don't know where your information comes from, but you have a very incomplete and partially incorrect picture of the issue.
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RestLessone



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Ghidra999 wrote:

I'm not going to dig this all up. It was a recent Supreme Court decision that deemed California's law against videos of animal cruelty un-constitutional. It was a recent decision, look it up. That's an example of illegal activity on camera being protected free speech.

Yes, they passed another law about "crush videos." But that was after this decision, and that's what usually happens with lawmakers. After cartoon porn of minors was deemed legal by the SCOTUS, lawmakers kept trying to legislate it again afterwards anyways. It takes a while for new laws to be challenged again, so it may give a false appearance of legality.

I don't know where your information comes from, but you have a very incomplete and partially incorrect picture of the issue.

As I said, we may have been talking about different issues. The crush video bill initially did spring from something involving dog fighting. Also, I did look up the case you speak of, and the articles I have read made of note of what I said before: they were overly vague and could, in theory, ban hunting videos. I fail to see how my information is actually wrong. Of course some think that these videos should be legal just because of the First Amendment, but several others just disliked the easy-to-exploit looseness.

I'm not going to get into a debate, either, but your previous statement sounded be-all end-all. Also, note that the law that was recently killed has been around since 1999 and was only taken out in 2010. 11 years. It was around for a bit before being challenged, but the declaration of legality is very recent (as is the newer crush law, which takes a similar stance to the first law).
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Darth Joker



Joined: 10 May 2010
Posts: 84
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:05 pm Reply with quote
hatersg2haet wrote:
Darth Joker wrote:
Drunk_Samurai wrote:
Joichiro Nishi wrote:
bravetailor wrote:
hikaru004 wrote:
[
And that's what got them in trouble with the PTA a while ago. They had a lot of explicit stuff in mags that the younger aged females had access too. So shojo just needs to clean up their act.


But this is what a lot of shojo readers are interested in. If shojo manga were only able to discuss cute, chaste relationships where the biggest conflicts were about a guy bringing a girl home before curfew, then the allure of shojo would diminish.


Don't be so naive, sexually explicite shoujos are hentai for teen girls. It's not about the plot, it's about hot rapists with generic emo past. I'm OK with melodrama in shoujo and I know parents shpuld educate their children instead of TV or mangas but there are some really disgusting stuff in shoujo manga that should be banned. For more information, read anything from Mayu Shinjo.


NOTHING like this should be banned. Censorship is wrong no matter what the reason. Also to call it hentai shows your damn ignorance.


So is censorship of real child pornography wrong?

I ask since you're making an absolutist statement about censorship.


Why yes it is.


So do you think that child pornography should be available to the general population? If not, then you agree that child pornography should be, in effect, censored.

Quote:

You clearly don't understand child porn laws or supreme court rulings on the issue.


No, I'm quite familiar with everything that you went on to bring up. I'm simply not splitting hairs like you did.

Quote:

Child Porn is not considered censored at any point. The reason it's illegal is not due to censorship but due to the criminal activities involved in the creation of it. Essentially the Supreme Court said that if its impossible to create something without a illegal activity having taken place then that thing itself is essentially illegal.


Well, then that thing is banned; in essence, it is censored. Whatever it's technically called, the effect is the same. If a pedophile wants to creatively express himself by creating child pornography, then he is effectively censored from doing so.

And, by the sounds of it, the way age restriction laws work in Japan, an "R" label has essentially the same effect as complete censorship. So, on second thought, perhaps it is valid to equate what this bill is doing with outright censorship.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:28 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
Tokyo Gov. Ishihara is a nationalist bigot. Doubtful he cares too much what the U.N. and its stinky foreigners think.


http://digital.asiaone.com/Digital/News/Story/A1Story20081204-105512.html
Quote:
Japan main culprit in online child pornography

Quote:
This is dated 12/4/2008 so I don't know if it's an ongoing issue in Japan or not, but the general view that the Japanese don't like to draw negative attention to themselves could be part of it all.

Japan seen as culprit

The congress once again flagged the seriousness of the problem in Japan: Despite being a leading Internet power, Tokyo has not reviewed a single related law, leading to a situation in which simple possession of child pornography is not illegal. Further, the country has no regulations in place to control images of sexual exploitation in manga and animated films.

Ethel Quayle, an expert on the problems surrounding child pornography, singled out Japan as a major culprit, saying the country is hampering the efforts of other nations, some of which are trying to block and regulate problematic images. A country finds it difficult to stem the flow of such images if another country fails to regulate those images, she stressed.

"On this occasion, the congress has made clear a consensus among the international community that images depicting the sexual abuse of children in manga and anime is a form of sexual exploitation, as it infringes upon the human rights and dignity of children," said Akihiko Morita, professor in international human rights studies at Tokyo Institute of Technology.

"The situation in Japan needs to be urgently addressed because it falls short of international standards [with regard to regulating child pornography]," Morita said.

I mean, I love living in San Diego & it's nice to see us place high in various polls, but the local news outlets often gert rather snitty over negative press. Is this article issue still an on-going situation in Japan that the average citizen is concerned the image of their nation is being tarnished by anime & manga?
If this is a concern by the average citizen, then no wonder this bill passed.


Last edited by CCSYueh on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3387
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:50 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
I mean, I love living in San Diego & it's nice to see us place high in various polls, but the local news outlest often gertr rather snitty over negative press. Is this article issue still an on-going situation in Japan that the averagbe citizen is concerned the image of their nation is being tarnished by anime & manga?
If this is a concern by the average citizen, then no wonder this bill passed.
It is a gross exaggeration to claim Japan is a leading culprit. Out of ALL the leading industrialized nations Japan contributes to the lowest share of internet child porn trafficked. Other countries should be following Japan's example and looking TO IT as a leader in curbing the problem, not giving people the impression that it is faltering. Because I don't see any justification for how anyone can claim it is.
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TheRussianMeatClob



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 33
Location: Wisconsin
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:17 pm Reply with quote
This guy better not be an otaku or we are all screwed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12015165
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:35 am Reply with quote
Oh great, now Al Jazeera is mocking the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_umvK474ho4&feature=player_embedded
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Drunk_Samurai



Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:04 am Reply with quote
Banken wrote:


You can buy adult manga volumes in convenience stores, right next to the regular manga.


Does that really matter though?
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:
CCSYueh wrote:
I mean, I love living in San Diego & it's nice to see us place high in various polls, but the local news outlest often gertr rather snitty over negative press. Is this article issue still an on-going situation in Japan that the averagbe citizen is concerned the image of their nation is being tarnished by anime & manga?
If this is a concern by the average citizen, then no wonder this bill passed.
It is a gross exaggeration to claim Japan is a leading culprit. Out of ALL the leading industrialized nations Japan contributes to the lowest share of internet child porn trafficked. Other countries should be following Japan's example and looking TO IT as a leader in curbing the problem, not giving people the impression that it is faltering. Because I don't see any justification for how anyone can claim it is.


Yeah I don't care if she's Phd, I wouldn't trust anything Ethel Quayle says (who intentionally conflates real child porn and drawn boobs and presents no hard independent facts, while bashing Japan and explicitly expressing it to become more like Britain)

http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/
Quote:

For this we have the Italian watchdog organization Telefono Arcobaleno’s 2009 report.
http://www.telefonoarcobaleno.org/report2009-eng_web.pdf
Top 10 Nationality of Internet Paedophiles:
No.1 – USA at 22.3%
No.2 – Germany at 17.6%
No.3 – Great Britian at 6.5%
No.4 – Russia at 6.1%
No.5 – Italy at 5.0%
No.6 – France at 4.8%
No.7 – Canada at 3.0%
No.8 – Spain at 2.3%
No.9 – The Netherlands at 2.2%
No.10 – Sweden at 1.8%

What about Japan? They’re way down at 16th place with 1.5%.



RestlessOne wrote:
Are they basically just implementing an age-rating system, albeit an extremely flawed one? It seems there are only 2 categories: for kids and 18+.

Yes. However Tokyo already had one in place that worked. This bill, along with any extra committee zeal, just pushes potentially a lot more titles into the 18+ category.

It should be noted that even the US does not have these kinds restrictions and ALL attempts have failed so far.

Past wrote:
Doesn't this bill encourage the production of more incest laden hentai and porn with underaged subjects?
...

Yep, that's exactly what I've been saying too!

The average person in Japan--not the publishers or actual consumers who are aware of the details and did heavily protest against it--are mislead and misunderstand the bill, which is not surprising considering how it's "marketed" and the smear campaigns.

Absolutely none of the concerns of "access to adult manga" are addressed. What it does do is make anything that was _not actually porn_ (i.e. hentai) before as well as other subjects that need not be graphic (i.e. incestuous relationships that is deemed "glorified or exaggerated") now classified the same as porn!

So if some creator/publisher runs the risk of being restricted to 18+ (in Tokyo -- but that's still a lot of customers), why bother with any moderate stuff?

Take for example Princess Lover.
- The PC eroge is restricted 18+
- The manga and visual fanbook (artbook) is not
- The TV anime is not
- The ero-OVA anime is restricted to 18+

This is all prior to the bill. Seems pretty good to me. But now... the rest of it may risk being pushed up into 18+ .. so if Tokyo's going to forcibly restrict it as porn, like hardcore porn, then why not shift gears and make it so? I think they could even more easily restrict Kiss X Sis as one now, given that it ticks every check box, despite the fact it's nowhere near hentai.

Heck (to repeat) even:
Quote:
"OYAPS has stated specifically that even the manga adaptations of Tale of Genji will be subject to restriction if the sexual relationships are described in a “unjustifiable glorified manner”.

(OYAPS = Office of Youth Affairs and Public Safety: committee responsible for determining the restrictions in Tokyo)
I mean seriously. Tale of Genji (.. although I guess I can see how if you broaden your scope enough: he sleeps with lots of girls, some young, and sleeps with one adolescent boy as well)

Personally, I think if you really, really wanted to restrict stuff, then at least like that response to that American teen above enurtsol posted, who despite completely misunderstanding the bill, did personally recognize that
Quote:
"and by children I mean 6 year olds, not 16 year olds)"
So that at most use a more sensible limit like 14 or 15+ (even then, I'd advocate a non-compulsory restriction, only requiring parental discretion advised type of label instead)
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HyugaHinata
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Joined: 25 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:42 pm Reply with quote
There's a considerable problem in treating people as immature neonates who must be shielded from all potentially "harmful" content, and mature adults who are given government sanction to watch pretty much anything.

It's akin to throwing a kid into a swimming pool without even a rudimentary knowledge of water.

They can try to filter the Internet to "protect" children, but they're doomed to fail. They're easily bypassed by anyone with a modicum of time and desire on their hands.
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