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Well, not exactly... spoiler[The Mu wanted Ayato to tune the world to their specifications, assumedly to one where the Mu rule the Earth. Humanity was definitely going to get the short end of the stick if the Mu won.]

But getting spoiler[the world tuned was their first priority. It was up to the instrumentalists to decide what the recombined world would look like. While the Mulian leadership would of course prefer that the Mulians came out on top, and Maya even brainwashed Ayato to ensure this, he broke the brainwashing. Maya eventually accepted that it was Ayato and Quon's choice. As for Bahbem - who was in charge of most of the preparations - he never struck me as insisting on a particular outcome, and I can think of two reasons for his disinterest. The first is that he knew that once the world was tuned he wouldn't have any memories of the previous world - no-one would - and that's assuming he even existed in the new world in the first place (turns out he didn't, if you take Ayato's wish to be erasing the Mu completely). So even if Bahbem existed in the new world he wouldn't care, he would never know the tuning took place let alone that it wasn't what he wanted. The second reason is more obvious. Bahbem had lived for thousands of years and spent the vast majority of his life working on the Xephon system. His big desire at the end of the show was simply to watch the tuning happen and seeing his life work come to fruition, but that was of course denied to him by Futagami. ]

I think Maya alone became that way due to her feelings as a mother and a sister. The rest of the populace were likely under the impression they were fighting to escape their dimension and take over Earth. That's certainly what the audience is lead to believe since the tuning thing isn't brought up until later (unlike the movie where everyone knows about it).

You're right about Bahbem, spoiler[but Futagami didn't deny him anything. He even asked if Bahbem was satisfied before shooting him. Bahbem died happy. I much prefer the film version of that scene, where Bahbem is horrified that it was different from what he expected and Jin delivers an awesome line before shooting him.]

Arkthelad wrote:

In Rah it was never clear how many Mulians were actually on the “Tokyo Jupiter” side so it appeared to me that both sides were kind of equally Mulian influenced. Never seen Gundam Seed but I’m assuming both groups in that were human but one group has genetic engineering like the newtypes. In Rah they’re supposed to be two different species but it never felt like an inter-species conflict.

dtm42 explains it, but I will add that even if you take the conflict at face value, simply treating it as a conflict of race/species is oversimplifying a bit, it also has elements of conflict between social classes, factions and ideologies. Regardless, at its core it's actually not actually a war story.

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Slowing down time=God status. How much more God like could they be?

Again, Vaisaga beat me to the punch, but I'll also add that they weren't the ones who made Tokyo Jupiter, that was a weapon the humans used to trap them and stall the conflict. And it's not as all-powerful as you make it sound, it has a limited range and probably took a metric fudge-ton of resources to make.

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Why would that have needed to be proven? He already knew that he himself was a Mulian at that point, and even if he hadn’t what influence did this revelation (about the Mu not all being monsters) actually have on his later decisions?

Because after spoiler[finding out he was Mulian and entering Tokyo Jupiter, he was having some serious self-doubts, episode 18 in particular does a great job of portraying him as broken. He needed to either reaffirm his old purpose or find a new one (or both).]

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A foil is a character whose purpose is to act as an obstacle to the protagonist reaching their goal. How does Hiroko do that?

That's only one definition, a foil can also be a character who exposes an important trait of the main character by contrast. In this case, spoiler[Ayato learned what it's like to be forced to fight without reason. By contrast, he himself was able to find something to fight for.]

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Kim got an entire episode of characterisation (after only being introduced in the previous ep) and then goes onto play no important role in the series. What was the point of that? If Souichi was just intended to be a supporting character then they shouldn’t have developed the relationship between him and Kim which put both of them in the foreground but with no purpose to the plot.

Don't you hate it when people ask you to explain the same thing twice? Their roles in the plot were small, but they were essential because they gave the story perspective. Kim was essential to convey how the rest of the world saw the Mu, and this resurfaces in episode 25 (which also justifies the relationship with Souichi). Sou, meanwhile, gave Ayato a friend near his age, and was a catalyst for him accepting his new role in the outside world. There were some superfluous details about them (though their relationship was well-utilized and served multiple small purposes, albeit not a big one), but I'd rather have something extra than something missing.

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Not in the context of inter-species warfare. Especially when the species are supposed to be vastly different from eachother, with one being vastly superior to the other. Also, not when both sides are lead by villainous members of the same species. This goes back to problem of writing science fiction that I mentioned before.

Already went through most of this above, but I'll add an admission that the sci-fi is probably the show's weakest element seeing as it has little if any connection to real-world science. BUT this show was always primarily a metaphor, the technology isn't the focus, merely a catalyst for/symbol of the central character conflicts.

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You’ve made my point. The older brother in Koi Kaze is presented as being emotionally disturbed, and that his decisions are based on this unhealthy mental state. It’s not the prospect of romance between people of different ages that I don’t buy in RahXephon. It’s how and why they get there.

I haven't watched Koi Kaze so forgive me for that, but you're being awfully contradictory. If your problem is, as you claim, with this particular relationship in execution (which your previous arguments indicate is not the case) then other external examples of it being done wrong shouldn't make your point. Just about all of your arguments so far have indicated that you don't believe two characters of such an age gap could conceivably make a good couple, and that's called imposing your personal values on the story.

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When is it suggested that she knows there’s no way this could happen? If I remember correctly, wasn’t she relieved when Megumi announces she wasn’t interested in him anymore. That suggests to me that she did feel threatened.

Your lack of context is laughable, that event was more of a step for Megumi, and Haruka was happy/relieved for her sister's sake (because she wouldn't get hurt any more), not her own.

Vaisaga, I must have gotten the film and series versions of that scene mixed up. Gah.

MadShadow42 wrote:

Again, Vaisaga beat me to the punch, but I'll also add that they weren't the ones who made Tokyo Jupiter, that was a weapon the humans used to trap them and stall the conflict.

Oh wow, you have this so wrong it is kind of embarrassing.

spoiler[The Mulians set up Tokyo Jupiter. Fullstop. I don't know how you thought that the humans made it when it is explicitly said several times in early episodes that the Mulians stole Tokyo away, trapping everyone inside.

Their real reason for the barrier was to slow Ayato's physical growth (relative to Earth's normal timeline) so that he'd be the right age when the tuning happened. The humans sure didn't know about him, so yeah . . .]

It had the bonus purpose of spoiler[allowing the entire Mulian race to appear on Earth when it was destroyed.]

I'm sorry, I got mixed up for a moment... but even so, didn't spoiler[Jin Kunugi seal off Nirai Kanai using the same technology near the end? That would mean humans gained access to the same technology.]
Regardless, I apologize for my bout of confusion, I'm pretty sure I was half-asleep when I was writing that. I was thinking of something different, pertaining to the same character. I didn't mean to embarrass myself before a fellow RahXefan.

MadShadow42 wrote:

I'm sorry, I got mixed up for a moment... but even so, didn't spoiler[Jin Kunugi seal off Nirai Kanai using the same technology near the end? That would mean humans gained access to the same technology.]

spoiler[Yes, Jin sacrificed himself to kill Kuki with the Jupiter effect.]

I don't know how TERRA got its hands on spoiler[a Jupiter Device, but they didn't invent it. Either they reversed-engineered it from the Mulians or it was given to them by Bahbem in case Ayato died and a new instrumentalist needed to raised super-quick.]

Anyway, it sure was utterly satisfying when spoiler[Kuki got his just desserts.]

dtm42 wrote:

I don't know how TERRA got its hands on spoiler[a Jupiter Device, but they didn't invent it. Either they reversed-engineered it from the Mulians or it was given to them by Bahbem in case Ayato died and a new instrumentalist needed to raised super-quick.]

Wha...? The show neglected to explain something so important???? OMG, PLOT HOLE, PLOT HOLE!!!! Rolling Eyes

That's exactly the kind of thing you would have bitched about in SAO as bad writing but which you, naturally, gloss over in a show you do like. Gotta admire your principled consistency.

Blood- wrote:

Wha...? The show neglected to explain something so important???? OMG, PLOT HOLE, PLOT HOLE!!!! Rolling Eyes

That's exactly the kind of thing you would have bitched about in SAO as bad writing but which you, naturally, gloss over in a show you do like. Gotta admire your principled consistency.

Just because it goes unexplained doesn't automatically make it a plot hole, as long as it's plausible. There are a couple of ways that it could have happened (as dtm pointed out), but knowing which it was wouldn't have added anything to the experience. It's called infrastructure.

Blood- wrote:

Wha...? The show neglected to explain something so important???? OMG, PLOT HOLE, PLOT HOLE!!!! Rolling Eyes

That's exactly the kind of thing you would have bitched about in SAO as bad writing but which you, naturally, gloss over in a show you do like. Gotta admire your principled consistency.

So how long have you two been together?

Last edited by Key on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total

MadShadow42 wrote:

Just because it goes unexplained doesn't automatically make it a plot hole, as long as it's plausible. There are a couple of ways that it could have happened (as dtm pointed out), but knowing which it was wouldn't have added anything to the experience. It's called infrastructure.

You're missing the point here, and it's probably because you haven't followed certain other series discussion threads over the last year and a half. dtm42 has a long-standing reputation for equating lack of explanations for issues like the one that Blood- was quoting as "plot holes" or signs of "poor writing" in series that he takes a dislike to. He also claims to be very rigid in his evaluating criteria, so he's flirting with hypocrisy if he doesn't acknowledge even something as minor as this as a significant problem.

And yes, this is petty, but that's also part of the point.

Key wrote:

You're missing the point here, and it's probably because you haven't followed certain other series discussion threads over the last year and a half. dtm42 has a long-standing reputation for equating lack of explanations for issues like the one that Blood- was quoting as "plot holes" or signs of "poor writing" in series that he takes a dislike to. He also claims to be very rigid in his evaluating criteria, so he's flirting with hypocrisy if he doesn't acknowledge even something as minor as this as a significant problem.

And yes, this is petty, but that's also part of the point.

I see... I'm not familiar with his habits, but I do see your point. All I had to go by was the SAO comparison, but with that context I definitely see how this could come across as irritating and hypocritical =w=

Wow Key, you are indeed being petty. And forgetful. I've never said that RahXephon (or any series) was perfect. So I'm not overlooking the plot hole. In fact, I was the one who pointed it out. And remember this post? I know you've seen it before, and you might want to re-read it. It's relevant to the conversation.

I'm not being hypocritical at all. I pointed out this particular plot hole in RahXephon (one that no-one else here seemed to have picked up on). But I'm inclined to give RahXephon the benefit of the doubt because it is a great show and has earned it. Whereas with Sword Art Online I was less inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt because it had displayed such weak writing. And heck, even if the spoiler[Jupiter Device] plot hole in RahXephon really is a plot hole and not just something I missed or that could be reasonably inferred, it isn't a big one, and the show shrugs it off. You guys didn't even know it existed until I pointed it out - you didn't mention it before - and it affected one scene that was not crucial to the main plot at all. So it wasn't like it was a huge problem. And compared to the crazy sh*t that went down in Sword Art Online, there's no comparison.

To imply that I am a hypocrite just because after I'd torn a weak show with big plot holes and numerous instances of bad writing a new orifice, I'm not tearing into a great show because of a small plot hole, is petty, blatantly false and just crazy. Every show ever made has its faults, and I've said that repeatedly. If plot holes at the level of the spoiler[Jupiter Device] are enough to turn what was otherwise a masterpiece into a poor show then there'd be no good shows at all, let alone masterpieces. Not one.

Get a grip Key. And stop being petty and dragging the Sword Art Online business into a RahXephon discussion thread, especially when you use such a ridiculous hack-job comparison.

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