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RahXephon (in response to ANN's podcast).


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:07 am Reply with quote
I don't think it is necessarily "high art" in its themes. Finding oneself and one's purpose in life, and love triumphing over all, are two pretty common themes in Mecha shows both Super and Real.

I think the "high art" comments come from the show's premise and concept, and especially the way it is designed and executed. There is a huge difference between the cerebral and carefully-constructed RahXephon, and the sorts of Mecha titles aimed at children and man-children.
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MadShadow42



Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:14 am Reply with quote
He said "high-minded", not "high art".

Honestly, there's a lot in the show to digest and most of the themes it ultimately chooses aren't what you'd initially expect from just reading the premise. I discover something new every time I watch it, personally, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The presentation is, of course, a big part of what sets this show apart; it's complex, very little time is spent on clunky exposition, some might call it obtuse for that. But it also explores its themes with much greater careful attention than just about any other show of its type, at least that I've seen.

Once I was discussing the show with a detractor who considered it merely "Eva Lite". He claimed that at the end of the day, all the show had to say was that "love is awesome and people deserve to decide their fates". On a very, very basic surface level those are indeed among its core themes, but that's a terrible oversimplification.

On one side, we see the Mu, who know that the world's tuning is imminent. Their blue blood marks them as the elite, and they wish to control what the new world will become. The humans, of course, don't like having their fates decided for them even if the Mu aren't exactly ill-meaning (they're not benevolent either, mind, they have goals and they're willing to shed blood of both colors to achieve it). However, the Mu themselves have overreached their boundaries and aren't as in control as they may think they are, this becomes particularly clear through Maya. Actively seeking to control the fates of others isn't within man's jurisdiction, in their attempt to control the fate of mankind the Mu themselves were manipulated by Bahbem, who got his own just desserts in the end.

Ayato doesn't have any particular interest in tuning the world, he just wants to live his own life. But as he quickly discovers, you can't find happiness through apathy toward the world around you either. That's just running away, it's self-destructive and it hurts the people who care about him as well. What always strikes me about RahXephon was just how personal (and interpersonal) it is. The world he ultimately creates wasn't born out of some grand vision for the future of humanity, but out of a simple desire for a place where he can live out his life with the people he loves. In that respect, he manages to find the middle ground of taking the initiative to control his fate without forsaking nor abandoning the people around him, simply focusing on building give-and-take relationships with the people around him. The world that results isn't perfect, but it's one where he's found happiness by doing what he needed to be doing all along.

So yes, it's a story of love and of determining one's own fate, but it says so much more, explores its themes so much better than other shows of its ilk, and its ultimate message is executed so well... seriously, isn't that a helluva lot more interesting than just "winning the girl by daring greatly and overcoming adversity" and such? And there are volumes upon volumes of subtext relating to these and related concepts throughout the series, and it's beautifully animated to boot, so I stand by it completely.
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 108
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:11 am Reply with quote
MadShadow42 wrote:
He claimed that at the end of the day, all the show had to say was that "love is awesome and people deserve to decide their fates". On a very, very basic surface level those are indeed among its core themes, but that's a terrible oversimplification.

On one side, we see the Mu, who know that the world's tuning is imminent. Their blue blood marks them as the elite, and they wish to control what the new world will become. The humans, of course, don't like having their fates decided for them even if the Mu aren't exactly ill-meaning (they're not benevolent either, mind, they have goals and they're willing to shed blood of both colors to achieve it). However, the Mu themselves have overreached their boundaries and aren't as in control as they may think they are, this becomes particularly clear through Maya. Actively seeking to control the fates of others isn't within man's jurisdiction, in their attempt to control the fate of mankind the Mu themselves were manipulated by Bahbem, who got his own just desserts in the end.

Ayato doesn't have any particular interest in tuning the world, he just wants to live his own life. But as he quickly discovers, you can't find happiness through apathy toward the world around you either. That's just running away, it's self-destructive and it hurts the people who care about him as well. What always strikes me about RahXephon was just how personal (and interpersonal) it is. The world he ultimately creates wasn't born out of some grand vision for the future of humanity, but out of a simple desire for a place where he can live out his life with the people he loves. In that respect, he manages to find the middle ground of taking the initiative to control his fate without forsaking nor abandoning the people around him, simply focusing on building give-and-take relationships with the people around him. The world that results isn't perfect, but it's one where he's found happiness by doing what he needed to be doing all along.


You said initially that "love is awesome and people deserve to decide their fates" is technically accurate but is an oversimplification of the core themes of RahXephon. You then supported this by basically giving a summary of some of the plot, but I don’t see how what you’ve said gives any more depth to the simplified explanation of the core themes. Firstly, those two aspects “love is awesome” and “people deserve to decide their own fates” are really premises not themes. The themes in those cases would be “love” and “agency”. I would have trouble accepting those as themes in RahXephon because as I mentioned earlier in the thread, there aren’t really any well defined conflicts that those themes could be at the centre of. What are the opposing positions expressed in the plot regarding “love” and “agency”?

MadShadow42 wrote:
"winning the girl by daring greatly and overcoming adversity"


Isn’t that kind of what does happen though?
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MadShadow42



Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:03 am Reply with quote
We clearly come from two different schools of thinking. A theme can't be summed up in a single word; "love" and "agency" are raw concepts, the theme is what the story decides to say about them, and the premise is the setup that the story uses to convey these themes. At least, that's what I was taught, but we're quibbling over words here.

You don't perceive conflict because you weren't looking in the right places; the conflicts weren't so much in the direct confrontations (though they certainly added to the overall conflict) but in the characters' psychological states and visions for the new world, how they choose to confront their respective roles in a world that's nearing its end, what direction they wish to guide that world's future down, etc.

The Mu want to control Ayato's destiny for their own purposes, they're neither malicious nor benevolent but their intentions for the world's tuning clash with Ayato and with red-blooded humanity. Conflict. Terra doesn't wish for the world's tuning at all, they want to defend the world as they know it, which positions them against the Mu, but their best weapon against the Mu is the agent for their enemies' ambitions. Conflict. I could keep going. It's not about what the characters do, but why they do so.
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Arkthelad



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 108
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:02 am Reply with quote
MadShadow42 wrote:
A theme can't be summed up in a single word; "love" and "agency" are raw concepts, the theme is what the story decides to say about them

Don’t entirely disagree. I was taking those based on what you said about the simplified explanation of the themes. I would never describe the theme of a film as “love” or “agency” because it’s too general but they’re still themes.
MadShadow42 wrote:
and the premise is the setup that the story uses to convey these themes

“Premise” has two definitions in plot structure “theory”. The first is a proposition that your story is seeking to prove. The second is a plot setup. Like you say though, just semantics.
MadShadow42 wrote:
the characters' psychological states and visions for the new world, how they choose to confront their respective roles in a world that's nearing its end, what direction they wish to guide that world's future down, etc.

I understand the concept of personal conflict.
MadShadow42 wrote:
The Mu want to control Ayato's destiny for their own purposes, they're neither malicious nor benevolent but their intentions for the world's tuning clash with Ayato and with red-blooded humanity. Conflict. Terra doesn't wish for the world's tuning at all, they want to defend the world as they know it, which positions them against the Mu, but their best weapon against the Mu is the agent for their enemies' ambitions. Conflict. I could keep going. It's not about what the characters do, but why they do so.


You’ve outlined 2 conflicts here:

The Mu’s vision for tuning the world vs Ayato’s vision for tuning the world

Terra’s wish to stop the Tuning vs The Mu’s desire to initiate it.

Here’s my question. When are these conflicts actually defined in the story?
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