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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:38 am Reply with quote
PrettyKitty20034 wrote:
asimpson2006 wrote:
PrettyKitty20034 wrote:


Sure they do. Are we forgetting Strike Witches? I just watched the first episode and never have I been bombarded with so many ass and crotch shots in the first few minutes.


The witches them selves are not moe at least to me. They can fight and defend themselves so that to me takes away from the moe factor. The females in the series that do not fight do give off a moe vibe.


But, it doesn't matter if they aren't moe to you. This is what I was trying to say earlier. Moe isn't created for us, the American anime fans. It's created for the otaku in Japan. Moe is based on their tastes, not ours. Apparently it worked, because Strike Witches sold a lot of DVDs over there.


I know moe was made for the otaku in Japan, not the North American otaku. I know it sold well over there, and I'm sure it did okay in North America.

I am just saying I don't see it that way, but if you do nothing wrong with that.

Anyways I am done posting in this thread, I still can't believe it is still going on without being locked yet.
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Zin5ki
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:21 pm Reply with quote
SonicRenegade84 wrote:
So as i'm gonna get back on topic with moe, I have realized that by adding everyone's definitions together, Moe is everything and anything.

Such a suggestion, earnestly intended or otherwise, serves only to mischaracterise the problem. It is not the case that necessary or sufficient conditions cannot be imposed upon moe, so that one cannot establish it as its own kind and thereby distinguish moe from non-moe, but moreover that there is disagreement as to what these conditions are.

It might be suggested that such disagreement signifies that the term is so broad in its extension as to be effectively meaningless, or that it is evidence in favour of the hypothesis that no fact on the matter can be identified, though our intuitions can rule both suggestions out. There are uncontroversial cases in which the use of the term is valid, such as the appearances (or reactions towards) one or two frequently-mentioned titles, along with uncontroversial cases in which the use of the term is not.

Such extremes act to address our fears against the feasibility of the endeavour. With these cornerstones in place, we need only set boundaries somewhere in-between, using common utterances and cultural phenomena as guidance. One should note that several definitions that seem fit to contain our intuitions have already been provided. Brent Allison and notrogersmith, amongst others, have already done so. (The latter submission bears many similarities to my own approach to the issue, principally because it uses a directed psychological state as a primitive structural unit within its semantic framework. One has the suspicion that many of the assorted offerings within this thread might converge in a similar manner if viewed in the right way.)
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PrettyKitty20034



Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 119
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:39 pm Reply with quote
asimpson2006 wrote:

I know moe was made for the otaku in Japan, not the North American otaku. I know it sold well over there, and I'm sure it did okay in North America.

I am just saying I don't see it that way, but if you do nothing wrong with that.

Anyways I am done posting in this thread, I still can't believe it is still going on without being locked yet.


Right. Everyone seems to be going in circles over just what moe is and whether this show or that show is moe based on their own preferences. Heck, someone out there could find Fist of the North Star moe, but does that make it a moe show? Nope.

Our preferences aren't taken into account when some committee sits down and tries to create a show with lots of moe elements. We aren't the target audience they are trying to appeal to. So sometimes things that are intended to be moe miss the mark in the west. (See: the tsundere type) I think what it comes down to is intent. Is this show's main intent to create moe feelings in Japanese otaku, who will then buy up the DVDs, figures, pillows, etc. of their favorite girl? If so, we could have ourselves a moe show. Smile
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1331
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:33 pm Reply with quote
Wanted to point out that I hardly disagree with the fact that KEY shows manipulate sadness. They don't. They create a character through story telling just like any other tragic story or drama. If you think they manipulate them then every tragedy or drama can be summed up the same. The visual of a character doesn't make a difference if you don't care about the character.

Having played the games you also have a different approach than just watching them.
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Well, I'm very fond of KEYAni's shows (I unashamedly love Clannad, especially the After Story, and think Kanon was really sweet), but I'd usually define them as melodramas rather than tragedies, since rather than focusing on how the characters' actions led to their own downfall and the repercussions of that, these shows rely much more on terrible things happening to good people for no reason and without any warning. I see a lot more resemblance to The Notebook or A Walk To Remember in KeyAni's cartoons than to Jude the Obscure or Looking For Alaska.

That's not to say that they're not cute, or well-made, or just really entertaining, but just like not everybody finds Marley and Me as poignant and touching as your mom does, not everyone really wants to sit through ten hours of Lurlene McDaniel-like maudlin drama.

Oh, though the criticisms levied at KEYAni shows are not always a "well, you just don't get the genre" issue- not at all. Some of these toons do have serious flaws in the writing. Shows like KEYAni's sometimes rely entirely on shock and tragedy and completely ignore logic and quality writing, as people like Chapman, and Bertschy point out in the podcast. Kanon, as nice a show as it was and as lovable as I found all the characters, was particularly prone to sacrificing good writing in the name of making a particular situation seem sadder. The hero Yuuichi spoiler[fell into a constantly-repeating cycle of characterization: he'd give his heart completely to one person, then have it completely broken as that person fell apart in one way or another. Because the tragedy of the character's downfall wouldn't seem as extreme if the other characters weren't OMGCOMPLETELY INVESTED in her well-being. While watching Kanon for the second time, I'd see the scenes where Yuuichi would make these teary-eyed promises to his friends on their deathbeds ("I promise I'll never leave you!" "Let's get married!"), and I'd wonder, "What would happen if this character DIDN'T die here? Yuuichi would be stuck!" And then once that character was dead/out of the picture? (and here's the real bad part) Yuuichi would recover instantly, seemingly forget all about his lost loved one, and start doting on some other character- because the new character's tragedy just wouldn't be as big if her support character was busy moping over the death of one of his dear friends all the time. That's just not very good characterization, you have to admit. (And I loved Yuuichi as a character! he was charmingly snarky and had great facial expressions and was Chris Patton omg)] (OT: This was one of the things I adored about Clannad; the main character, Tomoya, was absolutely the most interesting, dynamic and well-written character in the series, because everything that he witnesses changes him and teaches him something that remains with him for the rest of the series. Watching him evolve as a character was the best part of the cartoon! Bravo, KyoAni writers!) (OT^2: And my love for Tomoya is precisely why shows like Amagami SS, Starry Sky and Yosuga no Sora make me twitch on principle; they're deliberately set up to ensure that the hero will have no lasting character development! What a nightmare!!)

I think that's a problem that some people have with KEYAni toons in particular; there's so much gratuitous tragedy and too often it doesn't mean anything except "well, you can scratch Makoto off that list; ON TO THE NEXT SAD GIRL! :'D" (This was one of the deepest problems with Air TV, in my opinion; the stories of the first two girls were really kind of pointless and were never mentioned again after they were over.) And that can be a legitimate problem to a lot of audiences. Not all of them, obviously (Chapman even said that the "eternally resetting like a video game" format is probably ideal to a lot of fans-- though in that case why don't they just read the visual novel...?)

Anyway, that's this fangirl's two rather boring cents. I guess it would be more interesting to just copy and paste tweets from kids who listened to the podcast and are raving about how Chapman is spreading DIRTY LIES about glorious moe fandom and giving it a BAD NAME by daring to insinuate that icky, nasty (and I quote) "homolust" shows like Hetalia are moe! ("Silly fangirls, moe is for boys", apparently...?) But since I feel a little unclean just paraphrasing that, I think you'll have to put up with my rambling nonsense. ^^
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:26 pm Reply with quote
PrettyKitty20034 wrote:
asimpson2006 wrote:
PrettyKitty20034 wrote:


Sure they do. Are we forgetting Strike Witches? I just watched the first episode and never have I been bombarded with so many ass and crotch shots in the first few minutes.


The witches them selves are not moe at least to me. They can fight and defend themselves so that to me takes away from the moe factor. The females in the series that do not fight do give off a moe vibe.


But, it doesn't matter if they aren't moe to you. This is what I was trying to say earlier. Moe isn't created for us, the American anime fans. It's created for the otaku in Japan. Moe is based on their tastes, not ours. Apparently it worked, because Strike Witches sold a lot of DVDs over there.


I believe you are correct, and I would agree with you on that statement. I don't see Hanako from Isshoniwas made with a American audience in mind. Neither did the OS-tan. The OS-tan was not made for the American audience, and it never was. It was made for the Japanese people. I did recall reading about Japanese culture has a strong emphisis on cuteness. So that's why I would agree with you that moe was made for the Japanese audience, not for us. That's why many anime fans in America, and Europe are not big fan of moe. cultural difference and Japan's strong emphasis on cuteness.
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1331
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:54 pm Reply with quote
Myaow wrote:
Well, I'm very fond of KEYAni's shows (I unashamedly love Clannad, especially the After Story, and think Kanon was really sweet), but I'd usually define them as melodramas rather than tragedies, since rather than focusing on how the characters' actions led to their own downfall and the repercussions of that, these shows rely much more on terrible things happening to good people for no reason and without any warning. I see a lot more resemblance to The Notebook or A Walk To Remember in KeyAni's cartoons than to Jude the Obscure or Looking For Alaska.

That's not to say that they're not cute, or well-made, or just really entertaining, but just like not everybody finds Marley and Me as poignant and touching as your mom does, not everyone really wants to sit through ten hours of Lurlene McDaniel-like maudlin drama.

Oh, though the criticisms levied at KEYAni shows are not always a "well, you just don't get the genre" issue- not at all. Some of these toons do have serious flaws in the writing. Shows like KEYAni's sometimes rely entirely on shock and tragedy and completely ignore logic and quality writing, as people like Chapman, and Bertschy point out in the podcast. Kanon, as nice a show as it was and as lovable as I found all the characters, was particularly prone to sacrificing good writing in the name of making a particular situation seem sadder. The hero Yuuichi spoiler[fell into a constantly-repeating cycle of characterization: he'd give his heart completely to one person, then have it completely broken as that person fell apart in one way or another. Because the tragedy of the character's downfall wouldn't seem as extreme if the other characters weren't OMGCOMPLETELY INVESTED in her well-being. While watching Kanon for the second time, I'd see the scenes where Yuuichi would make these teary-eyed promises to his friends on their deathbeds ("I promise I'll never leave you!" "Let's get married!"), and I'd wonder, "What would happen if this character DIDN'T die here? Yuuichi would be stuck!" And then once that character was dead/out of the picture? (and here's the real bad part) Yuuichi would recover instantly, seemingly forget all about his lost loved one, and start doting on some other character- because the new character's tragedy just wouldn't be as big if her support character was busy moping over the death of one of his dear friends all the time. That's just not very good characterization, you have to admit. (And I loved Yuuichi as a character! he was charmingly snarky and had great facial expressions and was Chris Patton omg)] (OT: This was one of the things I adored about Clannad; the main character, Tomoya, was absolutely the most interesting, dynamic and well-written character in the series, because everything that he witnesses changes him and teaches him something that remains with him for the rest of the series. Watching him evolve as a character was the best part of the cartoon! Bravo, KyoAni writers!) (OT^2: And my love for Tomoya is precisely why shows like Amagami SS, Starry Sky and Yosuga no Sora make me twitch on principle; they're deliberately set up to ensure that the hero will have no lasting character development! What a nightmare!!)

I think that's a problem that some people have with KEYAni toons in particular; there's so much gratuitous tragedy and too often it doesn't mean anything except "well, you can scratch Makoto off that list; ON TO THE NEXT SAD GIRL! :'D" (This was one of the deepest problems with Air TV, in my opinion; the stories of the first two girls were really kind of pointless and were never mentioned again after they were over.) And that can be a legitimate problem to a lot of audiences. Not all of them, obviously (Chapman even said that the "eternally resetting like a video game" format is probably ideal to a lot of fans-- though in that case why don't they just read the visual novel...?)

Anyway, that's this fangirl's two rather boring cents. I guess it would be more interesting to just copy and paste tweets from kids who listened to the podcast and are raving about how Chapman is spreading DIRTY LIES about glorious moe fandom and giving it a BAD NAME by daring to insinuate that icky, nasty (and I quote) "homolust" shows like Hetalia are moe! ("Silly fangirls, moe is for boys", apparently...?) But since I feel a little unclean just paraphrasing that, I think you'll have to put up with my rambling nonsense. ^^


The issue with all the adaptions are they are based from games. Since in the games two characters cross paths or a few they decided to make them join. This is hard for some people to accept. Perhaps a redo on each arc would be better. But it is how the game works. Yuuichi plays a fatherly figure than more of the other kind of person in Kanon.

As for AIR the girls stories are each connected with the feather of the girl from the sky and their stories of such. I don't think they ever even meet each other in the game (can't recall). But they aren't "random" they at least tried to connect them.

Also the writing isn't Kyoani's it is mostly Jun Maeda and the writers of that time that worked on the games (since each writer handles a different story usually, up to one or two)

Coming from playing these games I really don't see a problem with the dis connect at all. as for Clannad they all play together (and need to) well but should of had resets more often. That way the anime audience wasn't confused about the orbs which were blatantly obvious in the game. That was a fault in the conversion and where they started pissed me off since that was a major point to leave off after restarting.

I also agree about your interpretation of American movies and views as well.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:07 am Reply with quote
PrettyKitty20034 wrote:

Right. Everyone seems to be going in circles over just what moe is and whether this show or that show is moe based on their own preferences. Heck, someone out there could find Fist of the North Star moe, but does that make it a moe show? Nope.


You win the meta moe game. Happy ending unlocked?
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:35 am Reply with quote
grooven wrote:
The issue with all the adaptions are they are based from games. Since in the games two characters cross paths or a few they decided to make them join. This is hard for some people to accept. Perhaps a redo on each arc would be better. But it is how the game works. Yuuichi plays a fatherly figure than more of the other kind of person in Kanon.

As for AIR the girls stories are each connected with the feather of the girl from the sky and their stories of such. I don't think they ever even meet each other in the game (can't recall). But they aren't "random" they at least tried to connect them.


I see what you're saying here... However, I don't think that being based on a game is an excuse for plot holes or jarring inconsistencies (and here I'm still referring to Yuuichi's cyclical behavior and the gratuity of some of AIR's characters.) Because a cartoon isn't a game, it's a cartoon; some things that make sense in a game make no sense in a cartoon, like forgetting all about the death of one of your close friends. (Can you imagine, say, Edward in Fullmetal Alchemist recovering from some of the awful deaths in that series as quickly as Yuuichi? How about Simon from Gurren Lagann? Hikaru from Hikaru No Go?)

The game and the cartoon are their own separate things, so I personally feel the cartoon should not try too hard to ape its source material, especially if being too much like it actually harms its credibility.

(Here's an anecdote to illustrate: my friend dislikes Kanon but loves Clannad. When I asked what Clannad has that Kanon doesn't, she told me, "In Clannad there was never a scene that jerked me out of the story and slapped me in the face with 'HEY THIS USED TO BE A DATING SIM'." As I've mentioned, I really like Kanon, but it really is easy to tell it was a game, and sometimes that hurts the story.)

Quote:
Also the writing isn't Kyoani's it is mostly Jun Maeda and the writers of that time that worked on the games (since each writer handles a different story usually, up to one or two)


I was talking about Kyoto Animation's screenplay and scriptwriters in that one Clannad digression- I'm impressed with the way that they were able to retool the game's plot and characters to make one big, well-told story instead of five little ones. (I know some people had a problem with the way that they omitted certain characters and plot points, but I think it was the better for it.) Though I do love Jun Maeda too! I always seem to like the characters that he writes for the best- their stories are so satisfying!
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