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ANNCast - Moe Money, Moe Problems


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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Penguin_Factory wrote:
Example of a good moe show: Figure 17. I've written about it before, but I think the difference between it and stuff like Kannan and Air is that the stereotypical moe elements of the protagonist (mainly shyness and timidity) seem as though they were written into the show for actual story purposes, as opposed to otaku appeal.

Not sure why you think that (for Air at least), the characters weren't "written into the show for actual story purposes".

As far as Misuzu's brain-damages/social-awkwardness you have to take into account spoiler[that she has never had hardly any social interaction. Even her aunt never really talked to her all that much and just left her in the room. And that the curse could easily be effected her brain quite a bit.]

As far as Michiru's hyperactive behavior you have to remember that spoiler[she's a dead girl who wants to make her sister feel better because the mom has denied the sister's existence ever since Michiru's death.]

For pretty much every character in Air there is a reason, and there is a story. Whether or not you see it is another thing.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:05 pm Reply with quote
grooven wrote:
Then Zac comes and says basically Moe degrades anime and admits he hasn't even watched really any...great.

Yeah, but did you listen to all of it? Zac came as a pretty understanding person, surprisingly. Laughing

Can't speak for him, but if I understood it correctly, he thinks that moe is dangerous to creativeness. Which I agree, by the way. There are some pretty good ones that break out of that circle, Angel Beats! and Bakemonogatari being the most recent to come to mind.
K-ON! has some pretty lazy writing, but it's pretty good because of that. An overflow of such titles would definitely be dangerous to the industry.
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Shichimi



Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, that was my understanding as well; moe fans may be more prepared to forgive flaws that others would not, allowing a certain level of laziness on the creators' part.

That said, I'm definitely going to get round to seeing Hidamari Sketch. What did Erin Finnegan call it in Shelf Life? 'Moe Pastoral'? Laughing

neocloud9 wrote:
I mean, how many guys have sexy nurse fantasies...?


Ah, you got me. Surprised


Last edited by Shichimi on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Penguin_Factory wrote:
Example of a good moe show: Figure 17. I've written about it before, but I think the difference between it and stuff like Kannan and Air is that the stereotypical moe elements of the protagonist (mainly shyness and timidity) seem as though they were written into the show for actual story purposes, as opposed to otaku appeal.

Not sure why you think that (for Air at least), the characters weren't "written into the show for actual story purposes".

As far as Misuzu's brain-damages/social-awkwardness you have to take into account spoiler[that she has never had hardly any social interaction. Even her aunt never really talked to her all that much and just left her in the room. And that the curse could easily be effected her brain quite a bit.]

As far as Michiru's hyperactive behavior you have to remember that spoiler[she's a dead girl who wants to make her sister feel better because the mom has denied the sister's existence ever since Michiru's death.]

For pretty much every character in Air there is a reason, and there is a story. Whether or not you see it is another thing.


Exactly and it was pretty ghard to draw out a game that is longer than Kanon in length to less episodes.

egoist wrote:
grooven wrote:
Then Zac comes and says basically Moe degrades anime and admits he hasn't even watched really any...great.

Yeah, but did you listen to all of it? Zac came as a pretty understanding person, surprisingly. Laughing

Can't speak for him, but if I understood it correctly, he thinks that moe is dangerous to creativeness. Which I agree, by the way. There are some pretty good ones that break out of that circle, Angel Beats! being the most recent to come to mind.
K-ON! has some pretty lazy writing, but it's pretty good because of that. An overflow of such titles would definitely be dangerous to the industry.


True after Greg sort of stepped up and mentioned a few things. I agree Moe can be bad for making some mindless shit. I just got the impression that he dismissed it all as garbage without seeing some good titles.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:31 pm Reply with quote
How can someone not generally like any energetic, cute young girls in anime?
There are people on this board that readily remind folks that anime is only the Japanese slang term for animation so why not do the same for moe. Moe is just the Japanese slang term for adorable young girls.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:38 pm Reply with quote
Hope,

You did not understand Air. That's all it comes down to. The fact that you even said that there was no "reason" for Misuzu's death cements this. I don't know if you made an effort to follow the story, but you obviously did not even capture the basics.

In the middle of the series there is a 2 or 3 episode arc that takes place 1000 years prior. That arc is absolutely crucial to understanding what is happening to Misuzu. If you ever want to speak about Air and sound like you have a single clue of what you're talking about, then be sure to focus on that middle arc.

But yeah, Air is definitely a show that has moe characters and has an excellent story/script/whatever. Kanon, not so much. That script is pretty lazy. Which isn't surprising, since the Kanon game was developed before Air.


Last edited by Megiddo on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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unready



Joined: 07 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:38 pm Reply with quote
I thought this show would have been titled "Moe Better Blues," but oh, well.

I don't know that Inception was totally original. I seem to remember reading somewhere that DiCaprio was greatly influenced by Paprika.

Although it was just a momentary aside in the podcast, I'd agree that Index 2 definitely isn't as good as Index 1. The Index story lines are complex, but in Index 2 so far it seems that complexity has been mistaken for quality. Other than that, the munchkin teacher wasn't moe in the first series. It seems kind of silly to make her moe in the second series. Ditto with dressing Index (the character) in a cheer-leader outfit instead of her habit. It just seems like they took a successful first series and are artlessly trying to make some money on a second series by adding tropes.

As for Air, I didn't like it much, but at least I understood that Misuzu was dying because she's an eternally reincarnated girl with a curse to die when she falls in love. So ... born, grow up, fall in love, die, repeat. The middle story arc flashed back to the Warring States era and actually showed the curse at the end. It wasn't an unexplained element purely there to jerk the viewer around. There were lots of other elements for that.

Falling birth rates, worldwide, are more about grown women not wanting to have multiple babies rather than men not wanting (or not able) to have sex with grown women. I seem to recall Italy has the lowest birth rate in the world. I don't think anime or lolicon is to blame in either Italy or Japan.

How to explain magical girlfriend: I Dream of Jeannie or Bewitched. Charmed was, to me, more like what if Charlie's Angles had magical powers, so that wouldn't necessarily be a better example just because it's more recent.

Finally, who would have guessed Mike O'Toole was an emo, advocating destruction as the solution to all anime problems? Just tear it all down and start over. I guess he'll be wearing eye-liner and black nail polish in the next Otakon video.

EDIT: reference to flashback


Last edited by unready on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:40 pm Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
How can someone not generally like any energetic, cute young girls in anime?
There are people on this board that readily remind folks that anime is only the Japanese slang term for animation so why not do the same for moe. Moe is just the Japanese slang term for adorable young girls.


I think it's the fact that it is in so much stuff that people have a problem with. I have no problem with moe, but say if a moe character should up in say Legend of the Galactic Heroes I think then there would be a problem.

The other thing to take into consideration is that some of the stuff is not good on a creative level. Though this can happen with anything moe or not moe.
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Hey, I just wanted to say kudos to this podcast (and especially to Chapman) for covering moe aimed at girls in addition to moe for dudes! I feel like moe has become a HUGE force in ladies' series these days (see: the Hetalia juggernaut, Black Butler...) It was nice to see Ouran and K-ON! given the same treatment!

Actually, I generally thought that the group in this episode was really well-rounded, and the variety of perspectives we got was awesome. Thanks!

(PS listening to this realized that my personal moe-meter is totally broken. Characters who turn me into a flailing, squeeing mess of misplaced maternal instinct: Asuka, Haruhi Suzumiya, Viral and Panty. The actual "premium girls" of their series, not so much. What can I say, apparently I am sweet on fictional jerks!)
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:50 pm Reply with quote
asimpson2006 wrote:
I think it's the fact that it is in so much stuff that people have a problem with. I have no problem with moe, but say if a moe character should up in say Legend of the Galactic Heroes I think then there would be a problem.

You mean to say the daughter of the cap wasn't tsundere? Laughing
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:51 pm Reply with quote
I always thought Lt. Greenhill was moe myself. Wink
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asimpson2006



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:53 pm Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
asimpson2006 wrote:
I think it's the fact that it is in so much stuff that people have a problem with. I have no problem with moe, but say if a moe character should up in say Legend of the Galactic Heroes I think then there would be a problem.

You mean to say the daughter of the cap wasn't tsundere? Laughing


I'm talking about moe, not tusndere. I'm stuck on episode 10 if that is after episode 10 then I will have to keep an eye out for that.
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Ranma824



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:54 pm Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
There are people on this board that readily remind folks that anime is only the Japanese slang term for animation so why not do the same for moe. Moe is just the Japanese slang term for adorable young girls.


Except that's not what it means at all.

The problem in Western fandom seems to stem from people wanting to label anime characters themselves with the term moe. But really the term needs to be attributed to the viewer. Adorable, young girls will always be cute; but it's the viewer who decides which one is "moe" to them.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:00 pm Reply with quote
asimpson2006 wrote:
I'm talking about moe, not tusndere. I'm stuck on episode 10 if that is after episode 10 then I will have to keep an eye out for that.

Tsundere is part of the moe tree, and so are Higurashi's yandere characters, as well as Melancholy of Haruhi's kuudere robot. Wink
That's why I said moe is a subjective term. It's applied too vastly these days (and correctly), thus why I'd rather just say sexy or cute. I do use yandere and tsundere often, though.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:09 pm Reply with quote
want to remind people of other examples of moe that doesn't fit the staff's definition of "virutal girlfriend" or cute girls (or guys) + timid, shy etc., personality traits, or worse yet the conflation with lolicon, nor anything sexual at all: Lucky Star like when Konata gets all mischievous, Hidamari Sketch, goofing off in K-On, Azumanga Daioh, Minami-ke, Ika Musume, Nendroid figures etc. Scenes or traits that are endearing are separate from any qualities of physical attraction.

Also want to point out the that for every success like K-On, there are tons that flop in terms of video sales. Again, look at the top 20 charts for the entire year, as well as the actual dvd/bd sales figures (tallied elsewhere). The fact is that the majority flop and literally no more than a handful do very well. The same is true for all genres actually out of like 100-150 shows a year (heck, Japanese viewers can hardly afford to buy more than a few series anyways)


Last edited by configspace on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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