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Puella Magi Madoka Magica (TV).


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BesuDesu



Joined: 11 Mar 2013
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:52 am Reply with quote
One major difference between the witch and wraith system is that little girls are no longer attacking their friends and making a general mess of things. You don't think that's pretty important to everyone? The incubators still meet their quota, and magical girls don't have to sacrifice themselves only to regret it as witches.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:03 am Reply with quote
You guys really missed the point. I wasn't talking about whether or not the magical girls were better off, I was explicitly talking about the universe as a whole. Without such an efficient system as the witch system, staving off entropy is that much harder. If the effect of Madoka's wish extended to all planets everywhere and at every time - and I don't really see why not - then that is an even bigger change in the ability of the incubators to stave off entropy.
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BesuDesu



Joined: 11 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:37 am Reply with quote
Call this speculation, but I can't help but think that the incubators would have at least searched for another energy source long before Madokas time period if it was so horribly inifficiant. Besides, I think we can all agree that the point of Madokas actions was to make an ultimate, all encompassing solution.

Last edited by BesuDesu on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blood-
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:40 am Reply with quote
Yeah, best not to examine that whole entropy thing too closely. It was always a pretty dopey excuse to have a neo-magical girl show in the first place.
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DuskyPredator
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:03 am Reply with quote
Not to mention that apparently the spoiler[Incubators were responsible for human civilisation progressing so far. Kyuubey said humans would still be in caves without them, so removing magical girls all together] may not be a good thing.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:12 am Reply with quote
BesuDesu wrote:
Call this speculation, but I can't help but think that the incubators would have at least searched for another energy source long before Madokas time period if it was so horribly inifficiant. Besides, I think we can all agree that the point of Madokas actions was to make an ultimate, all encompassing solution.


I think you still didn't understand his point. Kyubey said the system prior to Madoka's wish was VERY EFFICIENT. He said the new system after her wish was less efficient. The implication is that because of Madoka's wish, it is harder for the incubators to stop entropy from screwing up the universe. Whether or not Madoka believed she was making some ultimate, all encompassing solution, it is clear that her wish did not accomplish that.
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BesuDesu



Joined: 11 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:19 am Reply with quote
^ I think that's more an issue of the writing then anything.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:04 pm Reply with quote
^
No, it's simply you not accepting what was clearly and explicitly stated by Kyubey because you either don't understand or refuse to accept that Madoka made a wish that had negative consequences.
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DuskyPredator
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:58 pm Reply with quote
But can you be sure how it is negative? It sounded to me like the spoiler[Incubators just needed to stay around humanity to replace what is used]. And Madoka is a spoiler[god now, a force of the universe, I am sure if something bad happened she could do something about it]. Who knows, that could be the plot of the movie?

Less efficient does not mean impending doom, and it was kind of spoiler[douchie how the aliens treated humans as something like cattle, so maybe getting them to try harder seems fair.]
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:08 am Reply with quote
Madoka's actions made Kyubey's energy collection less efficient. But the bottom line is that it is great for the magical girls, and probably for the human race too. The universe is not going to die anytime soon, and our sun will destroy the solar system long before entropy renders the universe dead. Kyubey's race is looking at the long game, Mayan style. They have plenty of time.

The human race are no longer primitives living in caves, it was about time the relation between magical girls and the Kyubeys changed.
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dtm42



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:54 am Reply with quote
Godoka isn't all-powerful. She's changed into something like a fundamental law of the universe, but that doesn't mean she can do whatever she likes.

Incubators have to work harder and longer, true, but that's hardly a good thing for our universe and all the others (Madoka explicitly mentions in her wish that she wants this to apply to all universes, not just our own). Just because Madoka's universe still has billions of years to go doesn't mean squat to her or any other human, but in the whole scheme of things it could mean a lot. To species not yet born, to those species who are long-lived, and to our - humanity's - descendants.

And heck, her universe may only have billions of years because of what the Incubators are doing; think of it as like maintenance. If they have to use a less-efficient system then Madoka's wish could have shortened the life of the universe by a huge amount.

Yes, the Incubators have treated humans like cattle. But humans treat cattle like cattle; do we have any right to complain? To an Incubator we must seem like animals, irrational and stupid. And while humans kill for their own survival, or for fun, the Incubators harvest energy for a cause greater than themselves, greater than humanity, greater than any one species on any one planet in any one universe. Feeling happy that their work is now impeded strikes me as simply being spiteful rather than constructive.

That's not to say that I liked the Witch System; I don't. I certainly wasn't happy when the Earth was destroyed by Kriemhild Gretchen (Madoka's Witch form) in a couple of timelines. And I can't hold it against Madoka for making that wish of hers. But I wonder if there is any point to the Earth being spared due to Madoka's wish if it means the universe - all universes in fact - being put in more danger. She's saved the souls of a few thousand Magical Girls as well as the Earth, but at what cost? And who is to say that the Earth won't be destroyed by an uber-powerful Wraith?
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:02 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Madoka's actions made Kyubey's energy collection less efficient. But the bottom line is that it is great for the magical girls, and probably for the human race too. The universe is not going to die anytime soon, and our sun will destroy the solar system long before entropy renders the universe dead. Kyubey's race is looking at the long game, Mayan style. They have plenty of time.

The human race are no longer primitives living in caves, it was about time the relation between magical girls and the Kyubeys changed.


You keep going back to the point about how Magical Girls are better off to justify it, but that is not the issue we are talking about. The issue is that the universe is in a worse position after Madoka's wish than it was before. That is something that was explicitly alluded to in the actual show. I get that people want to believe that Madoka's wish was perfect in every way and had no negative consequences whatsoever (although I do not understand why people have that kind of zealous devotion to the concept of a perfect, god-like Madoka. It almost seems like a religious kind of zeal), but Urobuchi himself decided to insert this particular problem with Madoka's wish. We can't just pretend like it's not there in order to satisfy this devotion to "Madoka."

Whether or not the universe will die any time soon is not the consideration. As you yourself indicated, if Kyubey's people are looking at the "long game," then what will or will not happen any time soon is totally irrelevant. As dtm42 stated above, if Madoka's wish reduced the life of the universe from 10 billion more years to 8 billion more years, or maybe 10 billion to 6 billion (who knows?), then the "long game" has been dramatically compromised. Again, like dtm said, that means races and planets and creatures who would live much longer than human beings or perhaps be created during those lost billions of years will all now be severely harmed.

Again, we are not just talking about whether magical girls or human beings are better off, in the short term, due to Madoka's wish. That seems fairly obvious. We are talking about whether or not a vast universe (or indeed multiple universes) have all been put in danger due to the decreased efficiency in staving off entropy.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:55 am Reply with quote
The problem lies in the writing. No doubt Urobuchi was going for the same "monkey's paw" thing with Madoka's wish that governed every other magical girl's wish (i.e. no matter how well-intentioned your wish is there is always a sting in the tail) but he picked kind of a weak way to illustrate it. Indicating that the new system is "less efficient" than the old way is too nebulous, I think. No wonder people argue how serious or not serious that is because there really is no way of knowing.
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Polycell
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Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:50 am Reply with quote
That's true - for all we know the new process still generates energy faster than entropy builds up. Unless the movie decides to address the issue, we've got exactly no way of knowing.
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:34 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
The problem lies in the writing. No doubt Urobuchi was going for the same "monkey's paw" thing with Madoka's wish that governed every other magical girl's wish (i.e. no matter how well-intentioned your wish is there is always a sting in the tail) but he picked kind of a weak way to illustrate it. Indicating that the new system is "less efficient" than the old way is too nebulous, I think. No wonder people argue how serious or not serious that is because there really is no way of knowing.


Being less efficient implies that now more girls have to be recruited to gather energy to keep entropy from building up and hence more girls will have to die horrible deaths fighting wraiths. So, actually, while Madoka saved these girls from becoming witches, actually, magical girls will die now in greater numbers than before.

So, overall, one could make the case that the human race is now worse off.
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