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Jason Thompson's House of 1000 Manga - Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind


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BleuVII



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:45 am Reply with quote
Good post Dan. I definitely felt all of that in my first readthrough. I didn't feel it in my second readthrough. We'll see how next year's third readthrough goes.

Honestly, I feel like the worldview surrounding pretty much all supernatural anime breaks down in the end (which is why they all have such terrible endings)*, and Nausicaa is an example of that. But volumes 1-6.5 are so well done that I'm willing to overlook the last half of 7.

*noteable exception: the manga version of Fullmetal Alchemist

What do you think of Nausicaa's anime equivalent, Xam'd: Lost Memories?
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ptolemy18
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:41 pm Reply with quote
toddc wrote:
There's one thing I dislike about Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind: for someone who allegedly hates easy answers, Miyazaki hangs his entire manga on one. See, Nausicaa's never wrong. She's constantly shown as the avatar of compassion and moral rectitude. Even when she's making harsh decisions, the manga never stops reminding you that she's right.


I actually agree with you on this. Nausicaa may not be able to save everyone, but Miyazaki always seems to side with her on her moral decisions. This is something that happens in almost every manga and anime (and most American genre fiction) too, of course... the hero/heroine is always portrayed as someone who makes hard decisions and (usually) does transgressive violent stuff but it's always justified in the end. (Actually, anime and manga in particular are full of scenes where the hero does some insane deed (shoots someone in the face, takes off their pants and pees on someone in public, whatever) and then, a few pages later, there's some crazy justification explaining why they did it (the person they shot was a Cylon, they had to pee on the other person because otherwise their clothes would catch fire, etc.).) In Nausicaa, it's not just done for shock value, but there is a definite worshipful attitude towards its heroine. Nausicaa does feel guilty for what she does sometimes, she does feel emo and sad a lot... but she still does it, and the narrative still proves her right.

Admittedly, this is something that most fiction does... it's much easier to think of fiction where "the hero is always right" rather than fiction where "the protagonist is just as screwed up as everyone else".

About Dan's comments, and Nausicaa choosing to do what she does at the end... when I reread the manga after a couple of years, I found that I had misremembered the ending slightly. I had remembered that, spoiler[when the ancients awoke from the Crypt, Nausicaa's people would automatically be wiped out (because of the ongoing purification of the planet, if not because of the ancients actively trying to kill them).] But I had forgotten that spoiler[ the ancients actually say something like "Don't worry, once our plan is complete, we'll genetically re-engineer your people so you can survive too." So she really is throwing away her own people's chance for survival, too!] Maybe one justification for Nausicaa's actions at the end might be that, spoiler[if the ancients survived, her people might end up as their slaves/subordinates since Nausicaa's people just a bunch of low-tech mutant barbarians...] but this is total conjecture, since neither Nausicaa or the ancients ever say anything about freedom or anything like that. It's true; she really does spoiler[throw away her people's future (sorta) and the ancient's future (definitely) just to "let Nature decide" and, arguably, to punish the ancients for their presumptuous engineering of the world. Maybe an alternate, even more challenging ending would have been for Nausicaa to throw up her hands and say "FINE. I hate you arrogant jerks interfering with our lives, but the situation is so screwed up I have no choice but to accept your interference or things will get even worse. SCREW YOU ALL. YOU WIN. I GIVE UP." (Although I think the implication is that the rest of nature, the pre-apocalypse plants and animals, would indeed manage to grow back due to the Ohmu-engineered cleansing of the planet. Since Nausicaa finds the oasis with all the pre-apocalypse creatures in the middle of the dead zone. It's just the humans that will die.)]

So yeah, it *is* a nihilistic ending. But Miyazaki himself admits this, through the mouth of one of the characters. So I don't know if we're meant to swallow it unthinkingly and not question Nausicaa's decision. I think it's an interesting ending, and that's the most important thing to me, although I can't deny it's very very morally gray.
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BleuVII



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:40 am Reply with quote
I am SOOOOOO glad to see real literary discussion on the internet of something other than Evangelion!

When I re-read the manga the second time, here is the impression I got of the ending:
spoiler[Nausicaä fully admits that the ancients bio-engineered the forest, made the Ohmu, and mutated humans in order to live in a poison-filled world. However, as time went on, the creations took on "life" of their own, and though they were still fulfilling their purpose, they were no longer working in the way the ancients had planned. She saw the fact that they planned to come back after thousands of years and essentially press a "reset" button on the world as an abomination and and insult to all life. Sure, the ancients had a plan to remake humans so that they could breathe clean air, but in doing so, they were ignoring the life that those mutant-humans had taken on, destroying everything that went beyond "the intended purpose."]

In essence, it follows the same ending theme as the Xenosaga series, for those die-hards who stuck through all 3 episodes and actually SAW the amazing ending. And that is this: spoiler[Even if we are dooming ourselves to destruction, we will allow life to decide its own course.] By the way, I highly recommend Xenogears and/or Xenosaga I-III to fans who like to put thought into stories. To this day, I've never been able to figure out whether the protagonists or the antagonists are the good guys.
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andyos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:49 pm Reply with quote
SPOILERS (but I'll try to minimise)

I agree with BlueVII's reading of the manga (paraphrasing Nausicaa's internal monologue in the last volume, p.172). What offends Nausicaa about the Crypt is that it's treating _her_ world as a controllable means to an end, whereas she's seen abundant proof of how life develops and evolves in ways that no-one could have predicted, irrespective of what that life was 'planned' to be.

(From the strip: 'Are we supposed to believe that those who planned the reconstruction of the world could have predicted the actions of the ohmu or the giant mold? I don't think so. Something inside me is telling me passionately that that isn't true.')

The malign influence of Shuwa, and its ultimate responsibilty for a lot of the bad stuff that happens in the strip, is indicated at several points in Vol 7. I don't want to quote long chunks, but see pages 62 and 178, and then reread pages 120-1. No, Shuwa doesn't just want to be left alone; rather, it actively co-operates with the strongest megalomaniac despot to hand.

Personally, I think Miyazaki constructs a pretty rational case for Nausicaa choosing to trust in the planet, more than in the hubris of Shuwa, Which is not to say that Nausicaa is anti-science or technology; obviously she's not, as she uses both. She just won't accept submitting her people, and the world's future, to Shuwa.

Re the argument about Kushana: people's ethical mileages vary, but I find it possible that a person could do terrible things (especially in a war scenario), see the consequences with her own eyes, and then gradually be 'purified' by her own guilt and horror, in the sense that she becomes a far more moral person. As to how an essntially 'gentle' person could have been capable of such terrible acts against non-combatants in the first place... well, Miyazaki tries to suggest how that could happen in the final pages of the strip, by which point Kushana and Nausicaa have effectively swapped places.
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dan_bellucci



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:10 pm Reply with quote
andyos wrote:
Re the argument about Kushana: people's ethical mileages vary, but I find it possible that a person could do terrible things (especially in a war scenario), see the consequences with her own eyes, and then gradually be 'purified' by her own guilt and horror, in the sense that she becomes a far more moral person. As to how an essntially 'gentle' person could have been capable of such terrible acts against non-combatants in the first place... well, Miyazaki tries to suggest how that could happen in the final pages of the strip, by which point Kushana and Nausicaa have effectively swapped places.


I actually find this hand-wavey excusal of abject evil offensive. Kushana ordered every single man, woman and child in the city of Pejitei be put to death. She made this decision of her own accord, for the purpose of raising her political position amongst her family. She decided to murder thousands of innocent non-combatants to increase her favour amongst her family. That is quite simply grotesquely evil. And it shows , among other things, that like her brothers and father, she is willing to commit any act of tremendous evil in order to hold on to power. And yet it's her brothers and father who are portrayed as the despicable ones, while she's "a gentle bird".
That is bullshit. Why? Because she's a woman and occasionally swoons and sighs effeminately?
No. She is demonstrably every bit as evil as the other evil characters in the manga.
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andyos
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:13 pm Reply with quote
If you read what I said, it's not 'excusing' evil. I doubt Miyazaki is either, though I don't know whether he meant the 'blood has purified you' line in the way I suggest.

There are some people - and Miyazaki seems to be one - who sincerely believe that evil people can be redeemed. (For example, the whole of Christianity starts from that premise.) That's NOT denying these people were evil, or did horrific things. I have trouble with 'redemption' myself, but I don't find the belief as sick or offensive as you seem to do, and I don't think it equates to a 'hand-wavey excusal of abject evil.' If you _do_ believe in redemption, then the first step for a sinner is to acknowledge that he or she has sinned, and Kushana certainly does that.

For the record, Kushana's motives are a little more complex than you say. She attacks Pijetei on the command of the Emperor; later it's made clear that if she had disobeyed orders, she would have been executed for treason. Kushana's ultimate goal is to destroy the Emperor as revenge for her beloved mother, who was poisoned and driven mad. A defence lawyer might point out that Kushana herself has been warped since childhood by her upbringing in a royal 'nest of vipers.'

btw, only one of Kushana's brothers appears to be utterly evil; the other two are 'redeemed,' and even the bastard of the Emperor seems to have a couple of good qualities in Volume 7.
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ptolemy18
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:34 pm Reply with quote
andyos wrote:
There are some people - and Miyazaki seems to be one - who sincerely believe that evil people can be redeemed.


Yes! I mean, look at Vegeta in Dragon Ball!

No, seriously, I agree. I think that a moral transformation from evil to good can happen, and can be depicted plausibly in fiction. Sometimes in manga and fiction in general it's just done as a cop-out -- "that villain is too cool to die, so we'll make them a hero" -- but these things genuinely can happen as well, and when they actually feel real, they can be very powerful.

As for whether Miyazaki manages to show this change, and doesn't just allow his heroines to get away with all their killing and bloodshed because they're so cute and awesome... I think you could argue it either way. The comment by another commentor that "by the end of the story, Nausicaa and Kushana have switched places" is thoughtful. I think Kushana becomes genuinely more sympathetic as she seems to tire of war and violence and to regret her past choices. But that might be because Kushana starts from a position of a moral gray area (or outright villainy) and then develops more of a conscience. Nausicaa, on the other hand, always seems a little unreal and messianic in her dealings with others.
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dan_bellucci



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:50 pm Reply with quote
andyos wrote:
SPOILERS (but I'll try to minimise)

I agree with BlueVII's reading of the manga (paraphrasing Nausicaa's internal monologue in the last volume, p.172). What offends Nausicaa about the Crypt is that it's treating _her_ world as a controllable means to an end, whereas she's seen abundant proof of how life develops and evolves in ways that no-one could have predicted, irrespective of what that life was 'planned' to be.

(From the strip: 'Are we supposed to believe that those who planned the reconstruction of the world could have predicted the actions of the ohmu or the giant mold? I don't think so. Something inside me is telling me passionately that that isn't true.')

The people who built the crypt did not believe that they had worked out every single event that would or could happen in the next thousand years and accounted for every outcome. They were simply trying to preserve humanity and build something that would last until the earth was habitable for them again. And they were accomplishing that well. They might not have predicted the mould or all the specifics of Ohmu behaviour, but did either of those things affect their goals? No. The earth was still on track to being cleaned up (as indeed it is at the end of the manga, unfortuneately for the humans still alive). Both those examples are irrelevent to what they were trying to accomplish.



Andyos wrote:
The malign influence of Shuwa, and its ultimate responsibilty for a lot of the bad stuff that happens in the strip, is indicated at several points in Vol 7. I don't want to quote long chunks, but see pages 62 and 178, and then reread pages 120-1. No, Shuwa doesn't just want to be left alone; rather, it actively co-operates with the strongest megalomaniac despot to hand.

I did not find anything substantive in those pages.
Page 78 is a typical story of a ruler growing cruel and tyrannical aftr being in power for too long. The same thing almost certainly happened in Torumekia, even iwhtout any crytpt.
Page 62 has Master Yupa describing the crypt as "black" and "shadowy" in a superstitious manner that one might expect people to talk something mysterious they have no knowledge of. It also confirms that whoever ruled Dorok located their capitals at the place of the crypt.
Which brings me to page 120-121
Yes. The crypt cooperates with a ruler. This is necessary for the order to continue deciphering the text of the crypt (page 191). The ruler at that time then has access to the technologies the order manages to decipher. You cannot say that that is evidence that the crypt instigated wars, famine or whatever else.
andyos wrote:

Personally, I think Miyazaki constructs a pretty rational case for Nausicaa choosing to trust in the planet, more than in the hubris of Shuwa, Which is not to say that Nausicaa is anti-science or technology; obviously she's not, as she uses both. She just won't accept submitting her people, and the world's future, to Shuwa.

There are multiple lines in the manga that betray's Nausicaa's irrational, bigoted hatred of the crypt and the past.
Her line on page 196 "Nay!! You are nothing but shadows!" as though the fact they are not currently living, human beings like herself makes them lesser or unworthy
Her lines on page 197-198 where she, in her irrational, closeminded biggotry assumes that the crypt plans to destroy the humans currently residing on earth, or that the sea of corruption was created to "destroy the old world" (uhh hello?).
It seems quite apparent to me that she has something against the past.

Page 201 shows Nausicaa to be the one in the wrong more than any other page
Master of the crypt: Girl, are you saying that the efforts to rebuild the world should be abandoned, and humanity left to become extinct?
Nausicaa:Your question is laughable. we have lived all these centuries with the sea of corruption. Extinction has long since become a part of our lives.
Master of the Crypt: I am speaking not of individuals but of humanity as a species. Fewer and fewer children will be born. You cannot escape the hardening disease. You have no future. Without me, humanity shall surely become extinct. You cannot live beyond that morning.
Nausicaa: That is for this planet to decide.

I mean please, please tell me you can see what is wrong here? This stupid girl is basically guaranteeing humanity's extinction for no good reason.
You say that Miyazaki has constructed a rational case for Nausicaa choosing to trust in the planet, but where is the rationalism here? The only rationalism is coming from the Master of the Crypt, and she just ignores it. Rather than rationalism, she just makes emotional, "cool-sounding" platitudes.
"You are wrong. Life is the light that shines in the darkness! All things are born from darkness and allthings return to darkness. And now it is time for you to return to darkness!" p201-202
Her complaints amount to prejudiced biggotry and those of a petulent child not liking being told what to do.
Well yeah I mean sure the amount of inhabitable land is decreasing, and fewer and fewer children are surviving childhood, but at least we're being wiped out completely of our own accord. That's much better than surviving and prospering while the crypt still exists, right? Right?
Andyos wrote:

Re the argument about Kushana: people's ethical mileages vary, but I find it possible that a person could do terrible things (especially in a war scenario), see the consequences with her own eyes, and then gradually be 'purified' by her own guilt and horror, in the sense that she becomes a far more moral person. As to how an essntially 'gentle' person could have been capable of such terrible acts against non-combatants in the first place... well, Miyazaki tries to suggest how that could happen in the final pages of the strip, by which point Kushana and Nausicaa have effectively swapped places.


I actually find this hand-wavey excusal of abject evil offensive. Kushana ordered every single man, woman and child in the city of Pejitei be put to death. She made this decision of her own accord, for the purpose of raising her political position amongst her family. She decided to murder thousands of innocent non-combatants to increase her favour amongst her family. That is quite simply grotesquely evil. And it shows , among other things, that like her brothers and father, she is willing to commit any act of tremendous evil in order to hold on to power. And yet it's her brothers and father who are portrayed as the despicable ones, while she's "a gentle bird".
That is bullshit. Why? Because she's a woman and occasionally swoons and sighs effeminately?
No. She is demonstrably every bit as evil as the other evil characters in the manga.
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andyos
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:01 pm Reply with quote
dan_bellucci wrote:
[Yes. The crypt cooperates with a ruler. This is necessary for the order to continue deciphering the text of the crypt (page 191). The ruler at that time then has access to the technologies the order manages to decipher. You cannot say that that is evidence that the crypt instigated wars, famine or whatever else.


To be precise: "As long as the new king provides our order with protection, we provide him with whatever aid we can.' (v7, p192). No, that's not _instigating_ wars and famine, but it certainly exacerbates them. The mold technology, remember, came close to wiping the whole planet out when it mutated. Way to manage the arms trade, Shuwa! That incident alone gives Nausicaa fair reason to be rude to it.

You make a good point that the Torumekian Emperor didn't need Shuwa to become evil, but remember his whole campaign was motivated by trying to seize Shuwa's secrets (v6, p.98). Indeed, Shuwa wanted to exploit that by making the Emperor its next best friend. Shuwa operates like Tolkien's Ring; it seduces people with their darkest, most hubristic desires, taking their souls away. If you think Yupa's words are superstitious hype, then consider Miralupa at the end of book 6: "I'm tired of living. No matter what I do, things always turn out as the master of the crypt says they will.' This chimes with Yupa's observation about all the Dorok rulers struggling 'with the shadow (of Shuwa), only to be swallowed in the end by nothingness.'

(And no, Yupa's not a superstitious bumpkin; he's a renowned explorer who's been to every part of the world.)

Yes, Miyazaki shows Nausicaa making a mistake, if we believe Shuwa's assurance that it will 'adapt' all humans to the new world. (Which is a notable storytelling choice. After all, Miyazaki could easily have had the crypt say, 'Yes, I'll destroy all of you for the sake of 'true' humanity.' It underlines the point that Miyazaki _wanted_ to make Shuwa's case attractive. What we're really arguing about in this thread is if he succeeded so well that he turned Nausicaa into the villain!)

But Nausicaa isn't 'bigoted' against the past; she acknowledges that Shuwa 'was created out of idealism in an age of despair' (v7, p200). But she sees the past as the past; that's why she refers to Shuwa as 'shadows.' The continuation of life requires the acceptance of death ('All things return to darkness'). Shuwa is defying that by trying to bring the past back into the present. The results are both calamitous (the mould) and grotesque (the decaying 'immortal' bodies of Shuwa's servants and allies). [NB: There are strong parallels with "The Farthest Shore,' Le Guin's 3rd Earthsea book, which was (very) loosely adapted in Ghibli's 'Tales from Earthsea.']

Last point: Nausicaa's lines about 'living with extinction' may suggest that she feels more responsible for the fates of the people who live on the Earth _now_ than for the long-term survival of humanity. This opens up another ethical minefield, and questions about the rights of actual living people vs. potential future people, but I don't think it's a crazy point of view. Especially for Nausicaa, who's seen that evolution and mutation can throw up non-human lifeforms like the Ohmu, who are (she believes) better than humans could ever be.
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Mohawk52



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:03 pm Reply with quote
I saw the Shuwa's promise of "regeneration" and redesign of the people living then as just a russ and a con to try and convince Nausicaa that they are the rightious saviors of the planet and therefore cause her to stand down from destroying the crypt. BTW to me Shuwa was nothing, but organic data stored in a server called the "crypt". Hardly what I'd call "human", and the reason she called them "nothing but shadows". I consider Nausicaa to be the Rolls-Royce of manga. To understand the premise of Kushana's character and her transformation, one has to understand the Taoist philosophy of Yin and Yang which generally discounts good/bad distinctions and other dichotomous moral judgments, in preference to the idea of balance which can be seen in it's well know symbol of the black and white drops which seem fluid and with the white and black spots in opposition, meaning there is no such thing as pure good, or pure evil as each has a little bit of the other and each can just as easily become the other. In the Old Testament, or Hebrew Script, Lucifer was originally the arc-angel of light, and on equal rank as Gabriel.
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