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agila61 wrote:

bayoab wrote:

agila61 wrote:

I also note that it says at Hulu that episode 2 will be available on Monday. So on the "old fogey" theory, it would be an old fogey at a syndicated broadcaster ~ maybe Kansai TV.

That would still be a day before it airs on Kansai TV though.

What time does it air on Kansai TV? I only see date information at ANN, and I only see premier information at the other site i know of that lists broadcast info, and since its tomorrow in Japan while its still today in the US, a 2am broadcast on Kansai TV could easily be before a Hulu broadcast the "previous day".

1/25 @ 25:35 JST = 1/25 @ 11:35 AM EST

bayoab wrote:

agila61 wrote:

bayoab wrote:

agila61 wrote:

I also note that it says at Hulu that episode 2 will be available on Monday. So on the "old fogey" theory, it would be an old fogey at a syndicated broadcaster ~ maybe Kansai TV.

That would still be a day before it airs on Kansai TV though.

What time does it air on Kansai TV? I only see date information at ANN, and I only see premier information at the other site i know of that lists broadcast info, and since its tomorrow in Japan while its still today in the US, a 2am broadcast on Kansai TV could easily be before a Hulu broadcast the "previous day".

1/25 @ 25:35 JST = 1/25 @ 11:35 AM EST

Ah, so it airs on 1/26.

Quote:

Noitamina shows that've been licensed for R1 dvd/streaming-

Note I specifically said DVD licensing, not simply streaming. I believe my earlier comment is still correct.

Paploo wrote:

Wikipedia is lame in some ways since anyone can edit it, and it's anime licensing info is often omitted.

The Noitamina article on Wikipedia has been pretty reliable over the years. I check it regularly. I don't see anything in your list that contradicts either the article there or my earlier comment.

Quote:

As for dvd rights, I assume that Funimaiton has those rights for the shows it's streaming- they only license a few streams each season, so I'd be surprised if they didn't also have the dvd rights.

I wish I were as optimistic as person as you, Paploo. As others have repeatedly pointed out, Funimation does not appear to hold DVD rights for their Noitamina streams.

Quote:

Also, Nodame Cantabile recieved a dub from Animax for overseas airing that was produced in LA. It's being streamed legally on Crackle....I'm assuming Nodame's dvd rights might be held by whoever licensed it to Crackle, and that it's just a matter of any of the anime companies working through the tape involved to get home distribution rights.

Actually I believe it was produced in Asia and carried by Animax. For whatever their reasons, Sony appears unwilling to license this for R1 DVD release.

(You also omitted a few other Noitamina shows that have not been releassed in any form in R1, Hataraki Man, Hakaba Kitarou, and Genji Monogatari Sennenki.)

Let me reiterate that I'm not surprised by these licensing decisions. Noitamina shows typically aren't ones that appeal to mainstream anime fans who buy DVDs. Look at the viewing counts for Hoiuse of Five Leaves on YouTube. 35,000 people watched episode one; fewer than 6,000 watched episode two, and it trailed off quickly from there. Hulu doesn't post viewing figures, but I'd guess they followed the same pattern. If only a few thousand people will watch this show when it's offered for free, it's probably uneconomical to release a DVD series. (I've seen estimates that the break-even point for an anime DVD is about 5,000 units.)

In general there's an inverse correlation between the shows I find appealing and those that are licensed in R1. Thus I was pleasantly surprised by Funi's decision to stream Noitamina and disturbed by this latest, rather ridiculous, move by the Fractale Production Committee.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

It looks like you and Funimation are advocating giving up on securing and protecting their licenses until Big Brother or volunteers come to their aid. That mentality is lazy and stupid.

In short term I advocate giving up as you say because I think it serves no one to try your method. Their attempts to protect their stream will cost money and they will still fail.

They will be hiring people to do entirely unproductive work which will cause others to do unproductive things like cracking their DRM and/or obfuscation scheme.

I don't advocate "Big Brother" to do anything at all because I'm an anarchocapitalist. I really think having no IP laws at all is better for everyone. IP law provides the illusion of control that does not exist, and creates the incentive to expend much energy on protecting what is ultimately unprotectable.

Last edited by Paploo on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:24 am; edited 2 times in total

yuna49 wrote:

Quote:

Noitamina shows that've been licensed for R1 dvd/streaming-

Note I specifically said DVD licensing, not simply streaming. I believe my earlier comment is still correct.

I wish I were as optimistic as person as you, Paploo. As others have repeatedly pointed out, Funimation does not appear to hold DVD rights for their Noitamina streams.

Actually I believe it was produced in Asia and carried by Animax. For whatever their reasons, Sony appears unwilling to license this for R1 DVD release.

(You also omitted a few other Noitamina shows that have not been releassed in any form in R1, Hataraki Man, Hakaba Kitarou, and Genji Monogatari Sennenki.)

Well, technically, Antique Bakery was licensed after JyuOhSei and is getting a dvd release, so I wasn't totally off. Though it does sound as if Funi may not have dvd rights for the Noitamina shows they've streamed- still from what Agila says, I'm not going to totally ignore the possibility.

I leftoff the other shows since I used ANN's listings, which didn't include those for some reason- I'd love a release of Hattarakiman myself. Still, a show not having a dvd release isn't the end of the world- I'm happy Funi's streaming them nonetheless.

It does sound as if Nodame's rights are complicated, but that's never made a release impossible for other shows with strange licensing issues- Kodocha, "the masters were in a fire" DNA 2 , and Dirty Pair TV all found their way to a legit dvd release. Anyhoo, still nice it's available legally in some form. And again, they can't release info about most of these shows potential dvd releases till after the dvd releases in Japan have finished.

Checking CDJapan-
Kuraghime- won't have it's last dvd volume out till April 2011
Fractale- will finish in July
Shiki- won't finish till April

House of Five Leaves finished in November, but Funimation's schedule is pretty full and has been announced well into April, so I imagine we won't see many of these titles on dvd if they opt for them until mid 2011/2012. So I'm guessing we'll just have to watch Funimation's schedules for it from May to the New Year to get an idea of what exactly Funimation's plans are for these titles. They haven't really set a predecent yet of not releasing a show they've streamed.

yuna49 wrote:

Let me reiterate that I'm not surprised by these licensing decisions. Noitamina shows typically aren't ones that appeal to mainstream anime fans who buy DVDs. Look at the viewing counts for Hoiuse of Five Leaves on YouTube. 35,000 people watched episode one; fewer than 6,000 watched episode two, and it trailed off quickly from there. Hulu doesn't post viewing figures, but I'd guess they followed the same pattern. ...

That is one possibility. Of course, the video quality is better at Hulu, so some of the drop may have been people who saw it at YouTube, and then went to Hulu to add it to their viewing queue.

Still if, optimistically, the hits at YouTube were generating $0.01 an episode in ad revenue, that would be ~$300 for episode one, but only around $30~$40/episode after episode 2. Will that cover a number of hours of work for prosecuting IP cases? Perhaps, but only if that number happens to be one, or maybe two.

agila61 wrote:

ikillchicken wrote:

...
I mean, let's assume for a moment that piracy is totally indefensible and the people who are responsible are awful and deserving of our contempt. So fine.

What do you mean "assume"? The behavior of LazySubs is awful, and all the members of Lazysubs are deserving the contempt reserved for scumsucking vermin.

I myself would certainly agree at least as far as Lazysubs goes but given the vast quantity of English speaking fans that are blocked out of Funi's streams, I am not willing to throw all pirates of streamed shows under the bus without question. In any case though, the point I want to make here is that it really doesn't matter what you think of the pirates. He's trying to convince people that we should blame the them instead of the FPC. However, whether one accepts that these pirates are 'contemptible vermin' or not, it does not absolve the FPC of a significant portion of the blame here.

ikillchicken wrote:

He's trying to convince people that we should blame the them instead of the FPC.

Which I both would expect him to do. Indeed, I would be very pissed off if he had blamed FPC for their insane decision, since I liked episode 1 and want the stream to continue.

A Funimation rep agreeing that FPC also deserves blame would then ensure that the stream does not continue, which would ensure a bootlegger exclusive in North America. And ensuring a bootlegger exclusive for the length of the ban is exactly why I am angry at FPC, so how could I insist that Funimation does exactly the same thing?

Quote:

However, whether one accepts that these pirates are 'contemptible vermin' or not, it does not absolve the FPC of a significant portion of the blame here.

Again talking like blame is a constant amount to be divided up and shared around. The FPC deserve 100% of the blame for their decision to grant bootleggers an exclusive in the North American market. And the bootleggers deserve 100% of the blame for their actions to trample on the not only legal but moral rights of the original creators of the work.

Nothing that the FPC has done reduces the blame attached to the actions of the bootleggers.

Paploo wrote:

House of Five Leaves finished in November, but Funimation's schedule is pretty full and has been announced well into April, so I imagine we won't see many of these titles on dvd if they opt for them until mid 2011/2012.

I think that is exactly right. For a release at the margin like Ho5L, I expect they'd announce during the summer, at one of the big conventions, and this last summer would have been too early to expect an announcement.

But looking at the YouTube hits, Jellyfish Princess seems more likely. Ho5L has always looked to me a lot more like a Nozomi release than a Funimation release, but if Funimation is making a good faith effort to see if the numbers can work out, this seems like it would be a bit early to pass on Ho5L ~ it hasn't even been a full year yet.

I just saw on Hulu that Fracale Ep2 will be available on Monday, Jan 24th. Anyone know anything else about this?

Xanas wrote:

ArsenicSteel wrote:

It looks like you and Funimation are advocating giving up on securing and protecting their licenses until Big Brother or volunteers come to their aid. That mentality is lazy and stupid.

In short term I advocate giving up as you say because I think it serves no one to try your method. Their attempts to protect their stream will cost money and they will still fail.

Securing or putting up a front that a business is securing their property is the cost of doing business. Security has never been about eliminating criminal activity. It is about making it difficult for the criminal to obtain a product and making it easier for legal entities to catch criminals.

Adding security measure may increase the steps a legal consumer of goods has to endure but well planned security layer(s) eventually blend into legal consumer's day to day.

The inevitable defeat of digital security is not reason enough to give up on doing so. IP laws may need tweaking to accommodate the global economy but a completely removing them just would not work globally no matter how idealistic the notion sounds when advocated from a podium.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

I just saw on Hulu that Fracale Ep2 will be available on Monday, Jan 24th. Anyone know anything else about this?

http://www.hulu.com/fractale

Quote:

Availability:
Episode 2 will be posted Monday, Jan 24.

Well, that sure would be an interesting turn of events. Does a FUNimation rep want to comment on this (assuming they're still reading)?

braves, I hope it's true. I don't mind a week long delay and I'll be happy to wait if it means I can watch the stream legally.

If the FPC wants Funimation/Hulu to wait longer after the Japanese broadcast before putting out a subbed stream of it, that's fine. It's the whole unknown aspect of it that bugged me the most: not knowing *if* or when Funimation would be allowed to stream the show. If Hulu is right, we'll only have to wait a few days, and I'm cool with that.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

Securing or putting up a front that a business is securing their property is the cost of doing business. Security has never been bout eliminating criminal activity.

Security of tangible goods is relatively easy to provide, as even naturally such goods can be of inconvenient size or bulk to allow for theft, and additionally there is a natural predisposition among people not to steal from others.

People are naturally inclined to believe in property because not having property will lead to tragedies of the commons or violent conflicts over that which is clearly scarce/rivalrous.

So at the outset, security is significantly easier to provide for physical things.

And even in discussing the intangible, security is fairly easy if you are using modern encryption. The problem comes when you are selling this encrypted intangible thing that you must also decrypt to provide the experience the customer was looking for. You must provide both the lock and the key, but try to hide the key from the user behind obfuscation.

Quote:

IP laws may need tweaking to accommodate the global economy but a completely removing them just would not work globally no matter how idealistic the notion sounds when advocated from a podium.

Saying that removal "would not work" implies that we have something that does work now, and yet it quite clearly does not work. The "tweaking" of IP laws will be adding more restrictions for individuals and restricting their freedom and violating their privacy further, and it still will not work.

ikillchicken wrote:

He's trying to convince people that we should blame the them instead of the FPC. However, whether one accepts that these pirates are 'contemptible vermin' or not, it does not absolve the FPC of a significant portion of the blame here.

I'm having trouble understanding why all this anger is being directed at Lance. What do you expect him to do, given his circumstances?

Let's say you had a business that depended on maintaining good relationships with committees, some members of which act on other committees, therefore pretty much represent ALL committees in one way or another.

You have to maintain the appearance of being on their side, even when a few executives in these groups make really dumbass decisions you might not personally agree with. Your business, however, requires that you take their side. You want to nurture your business. That means smiling and keeping your personal feelings to yourself since what you say will definitely effect your negotiations going forward.

Now let's say there are a very vocal group of self-proclaimed "customers", demanding that you pretty much sever ties with a certain committee. You know if you act like a jerk to this committee, you may deep-six your business, since this one committee may be tied in with a lot of other committees. In fact, the people in these committees have a different business culture. If you act like you are not on their side, that will get around. You would be screwing yourself, your business, and eventually all the employees at your business. These committees are your bread and butter, while the vocal "customers" - well, you don't really have any proof that they actually are "customers", do you? In fact, it seems that these "customers" are actually committed to seeing your little business fail.

So whose side would you take, if you were in that position?

tuxedocat, I think your logic is pretty sound on the business aspects.

And I don't blame Lance at all, I blame IP without which FPC would not have these unrealistic expectations.

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