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tuxedocat wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding why all this anger is being directed at Lance. What do you expect him to do, given his circumstances?

I didn't have have a problem with Lance and what he was saying, because that's what I'd do in that exact same situation if I wanted to look good to my Japanese overlords. In fact, I felt really bad for Funimation...until I read this blog post, where he, basically, casts everyone who watches a fansub, no matter where they live, under one, big evil umbrella. This part in particular bugs me:

Quote:

If you torrent or watch a fansub on a non-official streaming anime site, you are not supporting the creators of the show and you are not supporting the anime industry, you are actually hurting the creators and the industry.

You know what I did Monday? In a matter of about 3 minutes I spent $160 on anime without even thinking twice about it. That's on top of the $145 I've already spent this month. The most ironic part is that everything -except Reiko the Zombie the Shop and To Heart- is Funimation stuff. I also have a membership on Crunchyroll and watch a lot of what's available on Youtube. I also watch fansubs of unlicensed material.

So, yea. Shut up, Lance. No need to be narrow minded and think everyone who watches a fansub is an evil leech.

In short, I expect Lance to keep quiet and say the right things to not piss of Japan (his first post). I don't expect him to make an unnecessary blog posts that just makes him and Funimation look like huge asses, who are only overshadowed by the FPC (the blog post).

Last edited by agila61 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

Xanas wrote:

tuxedocat, I think your logic is pretty sound on the business aspects.

And I don't blame Lance at all, I blame IP without which FPC would not have these unrealistic expectations.

The is inarguable ~ the production committee could not have any expectations at all if it did not exist, and Fractale certainly would not have been budgeted at all without the streams of incomes that are provided by copyright laws.

So, no IP, no Fractale production, therefore no Fractale Production Committee, therefore no decision of this sort from a non-existent FPC.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

I just saw on Hulu that Fracale Ep2 will be available on Monday, Jan 24th. Anyone know anything else about this?

I noted that yesterday in the ANNcast thread, when I went to Hulu to verify that Funimation streams on Hulu are available in 480p ~ after the repeated talking point that Funimation only makes 360p streams available.

As other commentators noted, Hulu availability notices are not necessarily flawless indicators that a stream will occur, and as I noted, I watched the Fractale stream via YouTube on my Roku, so I don't know whether it said the same earlier or if that was added recently.

For the sake of Fractale I am not discussing intangile things. I am discussing digital things which to some are indeed tangible.

Quote:

Saying that removal "would not work" implies that we have something that does work now, and yet it quite clearly does not work. The "tweaking" of IP laws will be adding more restrictions for individuals and restricting their freedom and violating their privacy further, and it still will not work.

My use of "tweaking" of IP laws could involve adding more or reducing the benefits some businesses reap from the current model. It would do you well not to grasp at straws.

Giving free reign to all intellectual properties over to capitalists would not work as well as the current way of doing things. Without a way for small companies to leverage IPs they are doomed to fail because they are unable to match the power of big businesses.

Your advocacy seems limited to wanting to protect individual consumers and questioning the current ethical standards but ignoring why IP laws were created in the first place, to protect an individual creator's of an idea from other individuals that want to use said idea without compensation or permission. Changing IP Laws can improve ethical standards and retain the intention to protect creators but completely removing IP laws harms creators, makes it easier for big businesses to copy what they please, while individual consumers gain nothing but cheap knockoffs.

tuxedocat wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding why all this anger is being directed at Lance. What do you expect him to do, given his circumstances?

Maybe he should just shut his big mouth?

I don't expect him to criticize the FPC. Obviously that would be a foolish thing to do and would hurt future streaming prospects.

That said, It's also foolish to go dashing to their defence. It's really not worth souring your reputation and your credibility with the fans by getting on board this sinking ship just to kiss the FPC's butt a little bit.

The sensible thing to do would be to not get in the middle of this.

agila61 wrote:

Again talking like blame is a constant amount to be divided up and shared around. The FPC deserve 100% of the blame for their decision to grant bootleggers an exclusive in the North American market. And the bootleggers deserve 100% of the blame for their actions to trample on the not only legal but moral rights of the original creators of the work.

Yeah man, obviously. The FPC's stupidity doesn't take away blame from the pirates. Just as the pirates don't take away blame from the FPC. They are two totally separate issues. That is the whole point I am trying to make.

Last edited by Paploo on Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

King of Harts-
I think the problem is magically assuming everyone's ethical about their use of fansubs- most aren't.
Minor convience for you means massive losses for the creators/licensors, lots of people using them irresponsibly, and assorted websites and torrenting companies profitting from them illicitly. Focusing on solely your situation ignores the larger issues Lance brings up that this affects lots of honest, hardworking people, and fans ignore the fact that companies are working hard to give you an alternative with legal streams. It's good that you do buy anime- I don't think Lance is out to make all anime fans supervillains. I think he's just pointing out the issues involved, and why there's negative consequences you might not think of.

http://helenmccarthy.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/treated-like-royalty/ There's so many things that are affected by the choice to support fansubs, even if you're just "sampling" for future purchases- it's a "hobby" that's grown extremely corrupt, and has grown some sinister aspects. Helen McCarthy touches upon some of this in this article and her talkback section.

Lance's statement is probably the way he really sees it, and while he may agree with the idea that there are a small portion of fansub viewers who are also paying for DVDs he almost certainly believes this portion of individuals is negligible and mentioning them would muddle his argument.

I think the failure of this reasoning is that if he's right "policing themselves" is extremely unlikely.

agila61 wrote:

Fractale certainly would not have been budgeted at all without the streams of incomes that are provided by copyright laws.

The copyright laws don't provide the income. Only to the extent they are enforceable or that people follow them solely because they exist do the streams of income come.

They are quite clearly not enforceable, and I would argue that the group of people who follow copyright law solely because "it's the law" is quite small.

The concept that many people have that people have a right to return on that which they worked on is I would argue much stronger than the law, and while I partially disagree with this notion I purchase anime myself for several other reasons that are much more powerful than copyright.

agila61 wrote:

So, no IP, no Fractale production, therefore no Fractale Production Committee, therefore no decision of this sort from a non-existent FPC.

As I explained above, the money isn't dependent on IP, but I do recognize that it's existence provides some comfort to investors who believe in it's power. Insofar as this is the case, I think the way that the "Fractale Production Committee" would come to exist in free-voluntary society would be quite different, but it certainly would not be impossible.

One way I imagine that you might see this sort of thing is that a portion of the funds would come up-front from those interested in it (for business and personal reasons).

You can find websites like thepoint.com which allow individuals to conditionally agree to make a contribution and I think ideas like this would allow for advance funding (at relatively low rates) of this kind of project.

ikillchicken wrote:

Yeah man, obviously. The FPC's stupidity doesn't take away blame from the pirates. Just as the pirates don't take away blame from the FPC. They are two totally separate issues. That is the whole point I am trying to make.

There is an obvious difference, of course: however counter-productive the FPC's decision was, it was a reaction to the actions of the bootleggers. So its a mistake that the FPC would not have been in a position to make if the bootleggers behaved like the old days and dropped series that got legit releases. Instead, scumbags like LazySubs pick up series precisely because they have a legit release, since ripping someone else's subtitles is faster than doing your own translation.

It really is the bootleggers who are "ultimately" to blame. That's what "ultimate blame" means in that context ~ if they were in the habit of leaving licensed series alone ~

~ and Lazysubs exists precisely to attack legit licensed series, thereby postponing the season when all broadcasts get a simulcast release, and reducing the number of countries that have access to those simulcasts, so for them "leaving licensed series alone" would mean disbanding ~

~ there would have been nothing for the FPC to respond to, and so there would have been no absurdly flawed response by FPC for Funimation to cope with, as best as they could.

But "ultimately" does not of course mean that they bear the sole blame.

tuxedocat wrote:

You have to maintain the appearance of being on their side, even when a few executives in these groups make really dumbass decisions you might not personally agree with. Your business, however, requires that you take their side. You want to nurture your business. That means smiling and keeping your personal feelings to yourself since what you say will definitely effect your negotiations going forward.

Wait, stop. This doesn't make any sense at all. Funimation isn't FPC's PR firm, they are a regional business partner beholden to their parent company Navarre and their interests. They aren't obligated to push anybody's viewpoint other than their own, which one would think involved connecting the offerings of the producers with the desires of consumers?

What you just described is a bizarrely feudal way of looking at the entertainment industry; like the Japanese production committees are the monarchs who control all the wealth and Funimation is the court baron charged with ensuring the survival of the unfortunate peon consumers. Is this really how you believe the transaction is supposed to work?

tuxedocat wrote:

Now let's say there are a very vocal group of self-proclaimed "customers", demanding that you pretty much sever ties with a certain committee. You know if you act like a jerk to this committee, you may deep-six your business, since this one committee may be tied in with a lot of other committees. In fact, the people in these committees have a different business culture. If you act like you are not on their side, that will get around. You would be screwing yourself, your business, and eventually all the employees at your business. These committees are your bread and butter, while the vocal "customers" - well, you don't really have any proof that they actually are "customers", do you? In fact, it seems that these "customers" are actually committed to seeing your little business fail.

Holy cow, that's one obsequious point of view. Did it occur to you at any point during the writing of this post, that consumers expect to get something out of these exchanges as well, and it's our demand that built the anime industry in the first place? That we're more than just statistics who should shut up and consume more all the time for the good of revenue and profit forecasts? Have you read a newspaper in the last two years?

I am in agreement with you up to the point that Lance Heiskell is not personally to blame for this mess, nor is any one individual. But beyond that the course of your argument is so overbearing it boggles the mind. The anime industry surely has a problem, but eviscerating fans for not generating enough sales is surely not the answer. Mad

Last edited by agila61 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:31 am; edited 2 times in total

mdreura wrote:

tuxedocat wrote:

You have to maintain the appearance of being on their side, even when a few executives in these groups make really dumbass decisions you might not personally agree with. Your business, however, requires that you take their side. You want to nurture your business. That means smiling and keeping your personal feelings to yourself since what you say will definitely effect your negotiations going forward.

Wait, stop. This doesn't make any sense at all. Funimation isn't FPC's PR firm, they are a regional business partner beholden to their parent company Navarre and their interests. They aren't obligated to push anybody's viewpoint other than their own, which one would think involved connecting the offerings of the producers with the desires of consumers?

They are a licensee, distributor and, they hope, a licensor of media. The media that they are licensing has a member of a Japanese business committees as the licensor.

Of course they have to behave in a way that fulfills Japanese expectations of the appropriate behavior of a business partner. Handling the not infrequent insanity of the japanese content owners is part of the service they are providing to me, a prospective customer. It would be grossly irresponsible to me. someone who views their legit streams and every once in a while buys one of their boxsets, for them to behave in a way that alienates Japanese production committees.

It would also be grossly irresponsible to their owner's shareholder and their employees, but I'm going to be selfish here and insist that they pander to my interests by making stoutly loyal noises when a primary licensor acts in a quite insane manner.

Edit:

Quote:

... consumers expect to get something out of these exchanges as well, and it's our demand that built the anime industry in the first place?

Yup, we expect to get something out of these exchanges: access to anime. I have a right to expect public voices of Funimation to be obsequious to Japanese production committees. Not "even when they are insane", but especially when they are insane from a North American perspective. That cross-cultural buffering is one of the ways that Funimation earns their slice of the pie.

Xanas wrote:

Lance's statement is probably the way he really sees it, and while he may agree with the idea that there are a small portion of fansub viewers who are also paying for DVDs he almost certainly believes this portion of individuals is negligible and mentioning them would muddle his argument.

There is also the possibility that he is assuming people have the freedom to make each choice they make, and when people do some things that support the industry and other things that undermine the industry, the fact that some choices support the industry does not change the fact that other choices undermine the industry.

Xanas wrote:

agila61 wrote:

Fractale certainly would not have been budgeted at all without the streams of incomes that are provided by copyright laws.

The copyright laws don't provide the income. Only to the extent they are enforceable or that people follow them solely because they exist do the streams of income come.

Suppose that the anime production house creates the series. Which other member of the production committee that provided the budget would have to do so without the existing IP laws? FujiTV would not have to put anything into the production budget, they could just air shows without paying for them. The merchandiser does not have to put anything into the production budget. Any DVD distributor who wished to produce it could do so without paying anything, so no distributor would put anything into the budget.

Nobody would who is in the production committee would have any reason to put any money into the budget if there is no copyright law.

Capitalism rests upon a broad network of rights and obligations. Anarchism by its very nature implies the complete destruction of capitalism. So "anarcho-capitalist" is an oxymoron ~ you can only have both in a fantasy world where the contradiction between the two is wished away.

Two updates-
as others have mentioned, the Hulu page for Fractale has indicated that episode 2 will be up tommorrow
http://www.japanator.com/fractale-starts-streaming-again-tomorrow-18325.phtml

Also, Funimation's YouTube stream for the first episode is still up. Not sure what's up with that. Maybe these two things indicate they've been working on it all.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDwcYIIX_eM

Since Ep 2 will be up, I'm going to be really happy now. And hopefully, this bullshit doesn't happen again.

Oh, that's some pretty good news.

Glad to hear good news about episode 2. But trying to get rid of the all fansubs is like trying to get rid of all the doujin that exist for the series. Commendable effort on Funimation's behalf for trying to get this to happen for the Fractale Production Committee.

mdreura wrote:

tuxedocat wrote:

You have to maintain the appearance of being on their side, even when a few executives in these groups make really dumbass decisions you might not personally agree with. Your business, however, requires that you take their side. You want to nurture your business. That means smiling and keeping your personal feelings to yourself since what you say will definitely effect your negotiations going forward.

Wait, stop. This doesn't make any sense at all. Funimation isn't FPC's PR firm, they are a regional business partner beholden to their parent company Navarre and their interests. They aren't obligated to push anybody's viewpoint other than their own, which one would think involved connecting the offerings of the producers with the desires of consumers?

Not obligated? Parent company (Navarre) wants product. If the source of the product wants something, like a blog post, to insure that you continue to get product, then you do it.

mdreura wrote:

What you just described is a bizarrely feudal way of looking at the entertainment industry; like the Japanese production committees are the monarchs who control all the wealth and Funimation is the court baron charged with ensuring the survival of the unfortunate peon consumers. Is this really how you believe the transaction is supposed to work?

Yes. The "old school" guys over there are still like that. Hopefully, that will change as a younger generation of herbivores take over. Maybe they will come up with a saner business model.

tuxedocat wrote:

Now let's say there are a very vocal group of self-proclaimed "customers", demanding that you pretty much sever ties with a certain committee. You know if you act like a jerk to this committee, you may deep-six your business, since this one committee may be tied in with a lot of other committees. In fact, the people in these committees have a different business culture. If you act like you are not on their side, that will get around. You would be screwing yourself, your business, and eventually all the employees at your business. These committees are your bread and butter, while the vocal "customers" - well, you don't really have any proof that they actually are "customers", do you? In fact, it seems that these "customers" are actually committed to seeing your little business fail.

mdreura wrote:

Holy cow, that's one obsequious point of view. Did it occur to you at any point during the writing of this post, that consumers expect to get something out of these exchanges as well, and it's our demand that built the anime industry in the first place? That we're more than just statistics who should shut up and consume more all the time for the good of revenue and profit forecasts? Have you read a newspaper in the last two years?

You mean like how we-the-consumers taught those banks a lesson and got them to stop issuing rip-off ARMs? oh....wait....

And how are you harmed by this? It's business. Maybe I'm just less thin-skinned about it since I own my own business. Obsequious? Sure, why not. Sounds fun! Razz

(though my post was an effort to examine the business behind this mess, I can't do anything about how personally you took it. Really, I wasn't thinking about you at all).

mdreura wrote:

I am in agreement with you up to the point that Lance Heiskell is not personally to blame for this mess, nor is any one individual. But beyond that the course of your argument is so overbearing it boggles the mind. The anime industry surely has a problem, but eviscerating fans for not generating enough sales is surely not the answer. Mad

It's a subjective thing. You might be the type that takes all sorts of offense at the smallest things. I figure that anyone who is buying product is exempt from being insulted.

Paploo wrote:

Also, Funimation's YouTube stream for the first episode is still up. Not sure what's up with that. Maybe these two things indicate they've been working on it all.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDwcYIIX_eM

It was never taken down. Remember, the simulcast was "halted", not pulled. (i.e. No new episodes.)

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