Forum - View topicANNCast - A Shawne Thing
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pantsmca
Posts: 95 |
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Just a heads up, Fractale wasn't subbed prior to the first simulcast at all. Horriblesubs is a ripper of both Funi and CR's subs. The first illegal release of Fractale was Horriblesubs' version which came out a half hour or so after the simulcast.
Not defending these people, I just wanted to bring that to your attention guys. 
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Daizo
Posts: 139 |
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Wow. For a supposed "news" site, you guys suck terribly when it comes to doing research.
The whole Fractale section went into the completely wrong direction from the very beginning with the whole "speedsubbers" thing and claiming that anyone subbed it before the actual simulcast. This was not the case. The first illegal release of Fractale was the HorribleSubs one, which was a direct rip of the FUNimation simulcast, released about half an hour after the official simulcast came out. The second release, which used TV broadcast video and based their subs on the FUNimation translation, came out 9 hours after the rip, and the first release with a completely original translation came out three hours after that, meaning it took the actual fansubbers 9 to 12 hours after airing to release the show. This is information anyone could have found out with one single search on a couple certain sites that I am 100% certain these people should be familiar with, if only for research purposes. So how in the world do you people manage to be so god-awfully ignorant and misinformed? Did you intentionally decide to spew total bullshit in order to demonize the fansubbers or something? And for the record, in order to sub something within a hour of its initial broadcast in Japan, you'd pretty much need to have a staff working live in Japan in the same room while it's still airing, and no fansub group ever would fit into that description. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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"Did you intentionally decide to spew total bullshit in order to demonize the fansubbers or something? "
I'm not getting your logic. Whether or not they ripped Funi's stream, subbing Fractale is still wrong. It's not like ripping it from Funi's steam suddenly absolves them of all wrong doing. I don't think Zac and Justin were intentionally making anything up, they were just going with what they knew so far about the situation. |
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pantsmca
Posts: 95 |
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Except they're not. They're assuming the worst of fansubbers based on a rather open-ended excuse of "HURP WELL THERE'S PIRACY" and jumping to their own assumptions and conclusions rather than, you know, looking into it and doing some research. |
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Greboruri
Posts: 374 Location: QBN, NSW, Australia |
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I was a bit confused with the Bill 156 stuff being discussed. At around 14:45, Justin says that anyone can go into a convenience store, pick up a copy of Young Jump and see depictions of schoolgirls being raped. However having read Dan Kanemitsu's blog, he actually brought this point up after Ishihara made a similar statement;
I know there's some quite graphic material in Young Jump, but I have no idea how it's sold in Japan (the only time I see it is shrink wrapped like every other magazine in Kinokunya). It just seems Justin's description is the complete opposite to what Dan stated. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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That was the timeline as I understood it, and apparently it was incorrect. I'll add a correction to the show notes. Way to scream like an angry child about it on the internet though buddy.
I think you're splitting hairs here, though. "HURP WELL THERE'S PIRACY" is kinda exactly what happened here, as it happens with every single new piece of animation Japan produces, virtually moments after it's made available for sale or broadcast. In terms of impact on the industry, there is no discernable difference between a group fansubbing the show themselves, or copying Funimation's subs, or ripping Funi's stream wholesale. They're all doing basically the same thing - ripping the show off and distributing it for free across the globe - and they all have the same impact on the viability of the legal stream. The outcome wouldn't have been any different had Horriblesubs not ripped the stream; some other group would've done it or fansubbed it within a couple hours anyway. Which they did, anyway, even with the Horriblesubs version out. Looks like about 5 different groups did in addition to the streamrips. For the record, I did go check and see what the situation was with Fractale fansubs/rips before commenting on the issue just to see how many there were, but I didn't check timestamps, so that was my mistake. But again, it wouldn't have mattered if it'd happened any other way. The timeline I had - as I understood it based on communication with people involved - was apparently a misunderstanding, and would've at least explained the FPC's panicky bizarre overreaction make a tiny half of an ounce more sense. But nope. In addition, for the angry commenters in this thread who are yelling at me about "demonizing fansubbers" and waxing rhapsodical about what a HUGE DUMBASS I am for getting a detail wrong, we - as everyone else is doing - mostly ripped on the FPC. The reaction to the FPC deciding to yank the stream is not at all against the crowd of fansub groups who distributed the show illegally or the speedsub streamrip guys who do it to every single company trying to make a dime on legal streaming anime. The entire community is screaming at the FPC for their decision, and since Lance decided to say "hey guys the real blame here should be placed on the people stealing this product and making any attempt to monetize it futile" and so now everyone is screaming at Lance about how MASSIVELY STUPID he is to EVER blame piracy or fansub groups for ANYTHING, and the problem IS NOT and COULD NOT EVER BE piracy and it's JUST THE INTERNET and how STUPID EVERYONE IS. So if you're worried about losing some kind of war for the hearts and minds of the anime fan community over whether or not fansubbers are a noble band of Robin Hoods stealing from the "rich" and giving to the "poor", a simply unavoidable part of the anime fan ecosystem, never to be blamed or even questioned when their actions damage the industry or even a specific stream... relax, you won that war. The mob is absolutely on the side of the fansubbers. I'm not lamenting this as some horrible thing, just stating a truth; an overwhelming amount of anime fans are 100 percent on your side, which is demonstrable simply by the reaction to the Fractale thing. So don't jump on my ass for stating my opinion on my talk show. |
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Daizo
Posts: 139 |
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And you never stopped to doubt it for a second? Or even confirm any of it yourself? Honestly, looking this stuff up to confirm for yourself that it matches the "timeline as you have understood it" would have taken you like a minute at best. And yet you didn't do it. Why? If this was some random blog rambling about this stuff I could somewhat understand it, but damn it, ANN is supposed to be a news site, so I'd expect the staff here to have even the slightest capabilities for doing some journalistic research and have some interest in getting their facts right. Also, when the "timeline as you understood it" just so conveniently happens to be a scenario that makes fansubbers and fansubbing look as bad and evil and immature as possible, it doesn't really help in making your "explanation" for the lack of any research whatsoever much more believable. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Oh yes, innocent little fansubbers hard at work subbing shows that've been licensed for legal streaming or dvd already, struggling hard to cope with ripping off the people who made the anime in Japan. I weep for them so 
Again, I don't really get the whole "portray fansubbers as victims" angle, nor "Zac is teh evils" stuff. Whether they use a rip off a stream or an upload from a Japanese user, they're still doing something illegal and without the creator's permission. That's some pretty hollow rage you have going on. |
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ABCBTom
 Posts: 183 |
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Actually, I would argue that the first "fansub" being a total rip of Funimation's work and nothing with any love or heart put into it makes fansubbing look as bad and evil and immature as possible. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Are we seriously having two posters freak out over Zac thinking it was a speedsub? It's all pretty delusional rage on both your parts, because it seems the issue wasn't just Funimation's stream being leaked, but the fact that the show was being distributed illegally by fansubbers, wherever they got the video from. That's what got the production comittee mad, that despite the fact that they went to a lot of work and trouble to do a simulcast for the North American market, their work was still being bootlegged. Whether it was a rip or a fansub with dancing fushcia subtitles that they laboured for 7 hours on and kissed the screen before uploading it is irrelevant- they still abused the rights of both Funimation and Fractale's Production team, and their respective staffs. It's like getting made because Zac heard some animals were being stolen and thought they were stealing CATS, when later it was announced they were actually stealing DOGS. They were still doing something wrong either way. Last edited by Paploo on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Look, I made a mistake, you got me, I posted a correction. I usually don't have my facts wrong, this time I did. If I did usually have my facts wrong, I wouldn't have been doing this job for 10 years. Christ.
Lemme ask you, Daizo - who I remember from the Oreimo thing - for all your hyperventilating and shitting on my head about getting my facts wrong, how much actual daylight is there between the scenario I incorrectly described and what actually happened? Does the fact that the show wasn't subbed inside the hour between broadcast and simulcast somehow change the fact that it was still - like every other series - instantaneously ripped off and spread across the globe by speedsubbers? Does it change the fact that the same 4 or 5 groups of people eagerly fansubbed the series as soon as it was available even though there's a free, legal version of it streaming not only in America but in France and other regions? You claim that the incorrect scenario I had was viciously concocted to make fansubbers look "bad" and "evil" and "immature", but are you saying the actual reality of what happened and what happens to every single show coming out of Japan is somehow noble and right and true and simply misunderstood by the people who's livelihood is affected by it? |
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Daizo
Posts: 139 |
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The fact that HorribleSubs released it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone, though - they've been ripping CR, FUNi and TAN simulcasts for ages. HS also has nothing to do with fansubbing - it's rather a completely independent and automated ripping machine doing the same thing that gets done to any US live action TV show. HorribleSubs is also definitely something you could call "evil" since they state on their site that they do what they do simply to piss off the people they're ripping off. So long story short, direct rips don't really have anything to do with fansubs and aren't nothing new, thus it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone involved that direct rips happen. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Daizo, the problem is that rips and fansubs are the same crime. You can put a pretty bow on one, but both have the same negative consequences for the producers and are consumed in the same illegal ways. You know what? I hope Funimation is successful, and takes a lot of these folks down. It's ruining anime fandom- I see nothing online by reams and reams of horrible people [mercifully, I don't see this kind of hatespew at cons] arguing for why they should have their free stuff and saying why the creators are horrible monsters and posting on Lance's blog post "F-you funimation!". You people need a reality check. It's a shame that people are so hateful to companies, their staff and creators online. You would get thrown out of a department store if you were acting this way while stuffing merchandise down your shirt. Zac's statements above about how anime fans see fansubbers as magical Robinhoods with rainbow clouds and cotton candy milkshakes says everything about how anti-creator fandom is. It's an obscene, shameful thing, and the fact that people can make statements like Daizo's without blinking an eye is disturbing. Is this how we treat people who make anime? What kind of people has fandumb become? Last edited by Paploo on Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ABCBTom
Posts: 183 |
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I never claimed I was surprised, but it's a distinction without a difference. Both fansubs and "rips" have the exact same effect. It pisses off the people you're ripping off. You can pretend you're noble in your own mind, but you're doing the same thing. Is it ever possible for a fansubber to be wrong, or to do wrong? Or does their choice of hobby inherently make them irreproachable? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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You'd have an argument here if Horriblesubs' rips were the only illegal subtitled versions of the shows being distributed. If fansub groups on the whole - even a majority of them - sincerely only stuck to shows that were unlicensed, and not a single fansub group had a version of Fractale out there, you might have a point. But the impact of direct rips and fansubs is exactly the same. There is no difference. A direct rip serves the exact same purpose and audience as a fansub as does a DVD rip of an anime series as does a camrip of a movie. There is no daylight between them whatsoever. Saying they "don't really have anything to do with eachother" - yeah, I can understand how you all populate different IRC rooms and hate eachother, but the impact of what you're doing is identical. If you can't understand that, you aren't thinking clearly or are so dedicated to your personal dogma about the nobility of fansubbing that you're incapable of thinking rationally on the matter. |
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