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Most Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem


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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7311
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:49 pm Reply with quote
*Shrug* Does it really matter? It's a foregone conclusion she's going to win by a landslide anyways. My pitiful little vote is hardly going to make an impact.
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errinundra
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Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 3072
Location: Melbourne, Oz

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:38 am Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Youko. No contest. The best thing about this particular tournament is that it has introduced me to this great series and this wonderful character who goes from a whiny schoolgirl you want to strangle to a magisterial leader who stares down an army through sheer strength of will.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

To those people who are judging Kenshin from the TV series, don't. The TV series and the Trust and Betrayal OAV are like chalk and cheese. Kenshin's journey from savagery to pacifism via love and betrayal is startling, convincing and moving.

--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Rue. No contest. The worst thing about this particular tournament is that I had to sit through 27 episodes of the garbage that is Gurren Lagann with its dreadful main character, Simon, who goes from a shy caveboy to a reprehensible delinquent who learns only one way to deal with adversity - smash things. Going from one kind of juvenile character to another, worse, kind of juvenile character makes him, in my mind, unfit to be in this tournament. Consider his methods for dealing with adversity compared with Youko's; consider his lack of self-reflection against Rue's growth in self-awareness; compare his journey from pacifism to violence with Kenshin's journey in the opposite direction; consider his inability to understand true leadership compared with Sabre's tortured journey towards knowledge. I really cannot understand why people think so highly of him.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Sabre was already impressive with Fate / Stay Night but there was always a question mark in my mind as to where, precisely, she was coming from. Her ordeals in Fate / Zero and her interactions with Gilgamesh and Alexander the Great show how misguided (if arguably praiseworthy) her ideals of kingly leadership were. If Rin is the, perhaps unintended, star of F/SN then F/Z proves that Sabre has the most fascinating progress overall.
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 1100
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
This reminded me that there was once a discussion about it that may be helpful. Sexism in Fate/stay night. Personally, I don't think that Shiro being a sexist is his main problem, but that he is an utter idiot.

Thank you for posting that thread; it was an interesting read. Smile The conclusion I drew from it is that while F/SN is indeed somewhat problematic, it is only as problematic as literally every other shounen anime ever made (like, for example, Gurren Lagann), especially those based off of visual novels. That doesn't diminish the fact that these shows are problematic, but considering I just voted in favor of Simon, it doesn't seem like a bad enough problem to really consider, at least IMO. I think some of the implications do seem to make parts of her development problematic, but she still seems like a fairly strong contender despite that and definitely seems to improve over the course of the show. Even so, though, that thread has also just served to reinforce my opinion that Saber is no match for Tsume. Smile
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7311
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:39 pm Reply with quote
Threads like that make my eyes roll so much I become dizzy. Yes Shiro has a white knight complex and if you want to view that as sexist, it's treated as a negative trait Shiro should overcome. And in the end him and Saber fight together to save the day. Falling in love with Shiro didn't make Saber any less a badass. If anything it made her even more of one since she was finally able to beat Gilgamesh.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1608

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:45 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Threads like that make my eyes roll so much I become dizzy. Yes Shiro has a white knight complex and if you want to view that as sexist, it's treated as a negative trait Shiro should overcome. And in the end him and Saber fight together to save the day. Falling in love with Shiro didn't make Saber any less a badass. If anything it made her even more of one since she was finally able to beat Gilgamesh.

I don't care if Shiro is a sexist. I don't like him, because he is an utter idiot. He is one of the dumbest protagonists I have ever seen and he only manages to survive for so long, because of his unbelievable and unmatched luck. I haven't seen Fate/stay night for years, but I remember that he only becomes slightly less unbearable at the end.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7311
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:46 am Reply with quote
That's what happens when they refuse to animate the route where he actually develops.

Anyways, any flaws Shiro has do not negatively affect Saber's improvement.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1608

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:17 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Anyways, any flaws Shiro has do not negatively affect Saber's improvement.

Maybe, but I am highly suspicious of improvements that allow a character to fall in love with a dumb and annoying person.
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Ggultra2764
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 2678
Location: New York state.

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:52 am Reply with quote
Match C-21: Youko Nakajima (Twelve Kingdoms)
The Nakajima steamroller continues crushing away. Arrogant as it seems, I still find it highly doubtful that she'll lose in this tournament.

Match C-22: Kenshin Himura (Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal)
Much as I enjoyed Hikaru's growth in Hikaru no Go, it's not as significant as Kenshin learning to rediscover his humanity after he became emotionally hardened from the months he spent slaying foes as the Battousai.

Match D-21: Simon (Gurren Lagann)
Now recalling where some folks could oppose Simon since his growth somewhat regresses in later episodes of Gurren Lagann during the conflict with the spoiler[Anti-Spirals]. However, his character is still significantly changed from earlier episodes of his series where he is more assertive and an inspirational figure for members of Team Dai-Gurren, a far cry from Rue's improvements which led her to regress into a typical damsel-in-distress found in fairy tales.

Match D-22: Saber (Fate franchise)
A rather easy decision for me here. Of all the characters within the Fate franchise, Saber undergoes the most significant change within her character from an emotionally hardened person holding onto her pride and ideals to a young woman who regains her humanity and learns to let go of said pride and ideals upon realizing how they would do more harm than good to aid in her desire of obtaining the Holy Grail.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7311
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:46 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
Maybe, but I am highly suspicious of improvements that allow a character to fall in love with a dumb and annoying person.


Well that's a matter of opinion. I like Shiro. Sure he's an idiot, but he's a good natured one who always tries to do the right thing. He really is the person Saber needed, though. He actually treated her like a person, a stark contrast to Kiritsugu's complete disregard of her. It was his persistance that eventually made her see the error of her ways.
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2113
Location: Where the rain is.

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:45 am Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise
Youko overcoming psychological assault gets my vote.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
Kenshin's improvement is incredible. His improvement is more than just a killer becoming a pacifist. He realizes that the means are just as important as the ends, and learns to love.

--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu
I love Rue but this match goes to Simon. His growth into a leader, overcoming fear and risking everything to save humans gets my vote.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero
Saber. Her journey of learning to forgive herself and feel emotions wins my vote.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:07 am Reply with quote
Sunday Tally Time

Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, 10
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, 1

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, 5
vs.
Kenshin Himura, 6

Group D-21
Simon, 8
vs.
Rue, 3

Group D-22
Tsume, 4
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, 0
vs.
Saber, 7



I am definitely surprised the Usagi hasn't gotten a single vote yet this round, when she managed the tie in the last one. Apparently everyone who liked her is going over to Saber, which doesn't bode well for Tsume's chances of making it further, as his early lead is gone now.

The lead in C-22 has changed a couple of times, so it's the most competitive match, but only C-21 is pretty much a lock at this point, surprising no one.
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Unicorn_Blade



Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 1047
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Youko's write up and comments for her made me want to watch the series. Watnuki's description seems cool, but he does not seem to be a strong candidate here.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Hikaru Shindou- based on comments, since the write up link does not seem to be working. I was not overly impressed with Kenshin ac a character when I was watching Trust and Betraya, so it was not a difficult choice.
--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Simon's development seems a lot more interesting, I voted for Rue last round but this time she is against a stronger contestant.


Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero[/quote]

Tsume to me me is still the strongest contestant here. He changes so much from the beginning, covering up his insecurities with indifference and arrogance. Despite his pride, he acknowledges not being the chosen Wolf and supports Kiba in the quest for Paradise, shows courage he was lacking in his early days, and forms bonds with others that he never wanted to create as they could make him vulnerable.
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Olliff



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 529

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:01 pm Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Youko without out a doubt. farichada summarizes why quite nicely with some extra vitriolic rage thrown in for good measure. Youko doesn't just start out weak, her mere presence at the start of anime was very unpleasant. It was unpleasant to the degree that I almost stopped watching the show. Whinny, emotional, helpless, and very grating on the nerves she had a plethora of unlikable traits. Slowly, over time, these traits begin to disappear and are replaced with positive traits worthy of admiration. Like another poster has mentioned the task given to Youko wasn't an easy one, and she thrown fairly abruptly into a position of power expected to perform. Youko at the end of her arc is quite the epitome of wisdom, strength, and leadership that are quite befitting of the powerful ruler that she has become.


Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Kenshin- Again I am echoing what others have argued. In comparison to how Hikaru improved Kenshin's improvement is much more severe in nature. Kenshin is able to mollify his murderous desires, a feat that is more impressive than becoming passionate about a game.


Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Rue It appears Rue will lose here, but I am in the camp that Simon's regression is a large strike against him. I am also not a believer that Simon's philosophy of solving problems through might and violence is not what I would perceive as a positive change. He becomes more heroic, but at what cost to his once peaceful nature?


Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Sailor Moon I am torn between the two front runners Tsume and Saber, and honestly I am not strongly swayed by the merits of either. Usagi's improvement is at least deserving of a singe vote, especially given what her ultimate role eventually becomes when she started out as such a crybaby.
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CrowLia
Thread KillerThread Killer


Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 2605
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:12 pm Reply with quote
C-21

Youko
I don't remember much from the original Holic anime and never watched the OVAs, I know I shouldn't judge him for the manga, but if the Rou OVAs cover as far as the latest arcs of the manga, then I feel Watanuki actually regresses -after coming a long way for improving and finding his self-confidence- and becomes completely stuck, making everyone around him suffer

C-22
Hikaru Shindo
Unlike Madoka, I truly love both these characters and feel strongly about their journeys, but as others have commented, I can't think of a coming of age story that is so satisfying and beautifully done as Hikaru's

------------------------------

D-21
Simon
This argument that Simon regresses and becomes some sort of violent brute is the most absurd I've heard. Simon grows out of his fear and his conforming with established laws and aspires for a better world for humankind, and at the same time becomes and inspiration for everyone around him. His fight with the Anti-Spiral is not a "I don't care, I'll keep being violent and destroy the world for shit's sake" but him fighting so that humanity gets the opportunity to better itself and find a way around the imminent destruction its existence seems to implicate.

D-22
Tsume
For all the reasons I've mentioned before about Tsume's improvement, his growth and his process of opening up to the others and learning to work as a team, something that was completely opposed to everything he'd believed up to that point
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7311
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:31 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
D-22
Tsume
For all the reasons I've mentioned before about Tsume's improvement, his growth and his process of opening up to the others and learning to work as a team, something that was completely opposed to everything he'd believed up to that point


You know, it's kinda funny how often in this tournament I've looked at reasons like this one and thought "... The exact same could be said about the other character!"
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