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One-Eye
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Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 1477

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:42 pm Reply with quote
Ugh, tired and I keep meaning to vote early but stuff keeps coming up.
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise.
I don't think Youko is unstoppable and I believe someone said in a past round that Watanuki might be able to challenge her. So I was half hoping to be convinced, but it seems that his support has faded with even marie-antoinette and rheiders abandoning the poor fellow. Wink As I've only seen about 2-3 episodes of xxxholic in the past I will go with the character that I'm familiar with. Voting for Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
What I recall is that as a kid Kenshin started off a bit arrogant thinking that he would change the world with his sword. Perhaps this arose out of some idealism of protecting the weak, but turned into an ends justifies the means as he became an assassin. However, murdering people as an assassin slowly started to take its toll on what little humanity Kenshin had left to the point that even some around him thought he wouldn't last. His time growing things like a farmer would and his developing love for Tomoe at first change him, but this is magnified with spoiler[Tomoe's later death] and the reasons surrounding it. So, he sort of changes twice first with rediscovering his humanity and later with spoiler[Tomoe's death]. He experiences first hand the cycle of killing and begins to understand what needs to happen to escape it. Voting for Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal.

--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu
Rue starts from a position of selfishness. She wants the prince to love her and only her. She also lacks courage for she fears that spoiler[if the prince were to regain his heart he might not love her]. Rue demonstrates that she has a human side because she struggles with the idea of the spoiler[prince regaining his heart]. She struggles with who she is. Is she Rue or is she Krahe? Is she the beautiful dancer or is she spoiler[the Raven's daughter who was fed the Raven's blood as a baby]? The spoiler[Raven's blood] is sort of a symbol for the darkness in everyone and it is this that Rue eventually comes to resist. At one point she has an opportunity to sacrifice spoiler[the boy with glasses, who has professed his love for her, to the raven] but changes her mind. Finally Rue makes a stronger change when she unselfishly spoiler[sacrifices herself for the prince]. This is a change from how she acted previously because it comes from her love for the prince instead of her original need to be loved.

I think whereas Princess Tutu handles things with a deft touch, Gurren Lagann is as subtle as a sledgehammer. I'm not a fan of the show and I think it fails in the first half in its attempt to balance its wackiness and more serious moments. However, without a doubt Simon improves. He's a bit timid, but he learns to be braver and to look forward beyond his life underground due to Kamina. When Rusio basically betrays him and spoiler[orders his death], Simon forgives him and saves him from falling into despair and spoiler[comitting suicide]. He joins forces with his former enemies, spoiler[the beastman Virel and the Spiral King], to fight the Anti-Spirals. Some have commented that Simon goes from a pacifist to just another violent character. Others have said that he is just Kamina lite or 2.0. I disagree with this. I don't recall him being a pacifist, but he was timid in the beginning. It is also hard to be a pacifist when the beastmen and the spiral king are waging war on anyone who comes to the surface. Its would also be difficult to remain a pacifist when the Anti-Spirals show up and are looking to exterminate all life when you have the power to fight against them. As far as being Kamina 2.0 idea, well he gained some of his qualities but Kamina was too macho and might never have been able to spoiler[give up his power to the younger generation at the end]. Simon also had the wisdom not to use the spiral powerspoiler[ to bring people back from death, even his love]. I would re-watch Princess Tutu over the juvenile Gurren Lagann any day, but I think Simon improves in more areas than Rue. His personality (timid to brave) and his character (he pulls a Cincinnatus) grow. Its a close one but Voting for Simon, Gurren Lagann.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero[/quote]
jl07045 wrote:
It's more than that...
I agree with everything you said. I was attempting to be brief and answer something specific I saw in rheiders question. Namely that Saber doesn't get a boyfriend, becomes emotional and plays second fiddle to the man in the story. Saber is still Saber. She regains her feelings (which is different than being "emotional") and her humanity. Shiro doesn't see her as a King/symbol or a tool or weapon, but as a person. I also seem to recall that her rule in the past might have been law abiding but could also be harsh. She could be inflexible with her thinking. By the end they change each other with Shiro easing up on his martyr qualities and Saber seeing herself as more than a weapon. It allows them to act as partners not master and servant. It also helps Saber accept things in her life and find peace. I found the very end of F/SN pretty awesome.

I voted for Usagi last round as I kept hearing "In the name of the moon!" in my head. But this time I hear the ringing of steel and the yell, "Excalibuuurrr!!". Voting for Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero.
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CrowLia
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:43 pm Reply with quote
@Vaisaga I've noticed that too, but perhaps because it's been too long since I watched F/SN, I feel closer to the improvement that Tsume undergoes, and most of all, how Toboe's insistence and kindness changes him
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:24 pm Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Voting for: Youko
I haven't voted for Watanuki for the past two rounds, not gonna change that when he's up against one of the most impressive contenders in the whole tournament.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Voting for: Kenshin
Hikaru's supporters haven't ever really convinced me he's that special, and several of those voting for him are judging Kenshin based on different material.

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Voting for: Simon
For as much as people are complaining about Simon's setbacks, Rue spends most of the second half despondent and consigned to her fate. Although her regret at her actions while a villainess is admirable, she becomes a damsel in distress, which is a greater backtracking than Simon's recklessness, because he still ends up saving the universe, compared to Rue needing to be saved from her own despair.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf's Rain vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Voting for: Tsume
Picked Tsume for for D-19, and I can't vote Saber for pretty much the reasons Rheiders initially expressed. No, you're not going to convince me otherwise; I've seen the show and my opinion isn't changing on it.

Psycho 101 wrote:
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Minigame results.
We've had a bit of a shake up in our leader board, and there's still time for more shuffling. It might even come down to the finals, and that doesn't usually happen.

The one time I won I only did because I guessed the winners (Kurau and Christmas for the duo) and #2 didn't (forget who it was).

Except you only got second place in that one. I won it. You did manage to steal 2nd from ManOfRust in the final round of that one, though.
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rosebrook11



Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 887

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:33 pm Reply with quote
I'm super tired and sick so these are the reasonings ever.

Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Youko The arguments from the entire tournament have convinved me that she's stronger here.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Hikaru for all of the effort and determination he shows in his series.

--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Voting for Rue I don't think Rue regresses in her series, she did not expect to be saved by anyone when she made her decisions. She becomes much less selfish throughout the series and learns to be true to herself and act based on her own feelings.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

[b]Tsume[b]. After seeing a bit more of Wolf's Rain I understand about why Tsume's improvement is so special. And I never was that impressed with Saber's development. It's interesting but it never struck me that strongly.


Last edited by rosebrook11 on Mon May 06, 2013 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:44 pm Reply with quote
One-Eye wrote:
I believe someone said in a past round that Watanuki might be able to challenge her.


Yeah, that was me. And I did think long and hard about the match-up (it was another one I predicted right in the mini-game and so I had lots of time for this consideration). And, as I said in my vote reasoning, ultimately it was the quality of the xxxHolic adaptation that let Watanuki down. The fact that the OVAs only show bits and pieces of his growth in the end make it hard to really justify him as being more improved because the whole improvement isn't shown.

I love the xxxHolic manga but the anime has a decent amount of flaws and not handling awesome character development as well as they could have is one of them.
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getchman
Team GurrenTeam Gurren


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 7493
Location: Cheshire, CT

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:06 pm Reply with quote
nearly forgot about this, again

Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

watching 12 Kingdoms. I still haven't gotten very far, but I already like Youko a lot more than I did in the first few episodes. Watanuki certainly has some impressive development, but since it's apparent that Youko is only gong to get better, I'm going to vote for Youko.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Voting for Kenshin based on arguments made for him

--------------------------------------------------

Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

I like Simon. don't know anything about Rue or Princess Tutu, and while it sounds like she make some great improvements, I think Simon is better. So he gets my vote

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero[/quote]

Voting for Saber for basically the same reasons as Vaisaga specified
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mow123



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 337

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:46 pm Reply with quote
Group C-21
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic franchise

Youko Whiny, unlikable school girl to wise, respected and likable leader - Youko is steamrolling a for a reason. Plus the arguments suggest Watanuki isn't strong.

Group C-22
Hikaru Shindou, Hikaru no Go
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Kenshin Murderer to pacifist blows the circumstances of Hikaur's improvement out of the water. A well-written coming of age story doesn't really compare to an improvement that is much graver in nature. Also I hardly call becoming more and more passionate and enthusiastic about a game grounds for top-tier improvement.



Group D-21
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Rue, Princess Tutu

Yuck, I think Rue is underwhelming, and Simon falters and not all of his change is for the better. Slight advantage goes to Simon because of how his improvement affects others and because his improvement is more developed. Due to his improvement taking a step back, I'm not sure how long he will last, but I've never been that impressed with Rue's improvement due what Key mentioned. The way that Rue willingly lets herself flounder due to what she believes is fate is even more damaging to an improvement than what Simon goes through.

Group D-22
Tsume, Wolf’s Rain
vs.
Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Saber has my vote because she was able to accept certain things in her life and finally find peace to calm the endless internal strife that was tearing her apart mentally. Personally, I don't see how her relationship can be seen as negative to her improvement. I feel more that this was a step towards reclaiming her humanity by acting on her feelings, something that she was incapable of doing at first.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12791
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:22 pm Reply with quote
Round 4 Groups C and D are now closed.

With 19 votes in, the results:

C-21: Youko strikes down Kimihiro Watanuke with kingly authority, 18-1.
C-22: Kenshin Himura battles back to eliminate Hikaru Shindo, 11-8.

D-21: Simon manhandles (mechandles?) Rue, 14-5.
D-22: Saber outlasts Tsume and soundly defeats Usagi, 10-8-1.

C-22 just further proved that you can't base any expectations of ultimate outcome on early returns, while D-22 quickly became a pitched battle between Tsume and Saber, with Usagi barely an afterthought. That one was close down to the wire, with another tie possible going into the final vote. The other two were never close.

And that was a mere 2/4 for me in the minigame, but I'd be a little surprised if too many people did better here. But I've been surprised on that before, so. . .

Anyway, here are how the final nine survivors rank:

Power Rankings
1. Youko, 0.919355
2. Fakir, 0.916667
3. Simon, 0.779661
4. Chihiro, 0.766667
5. Scar, 0.765625
6. Saber, 0.745763
7. Kyoko, 0.6875
8. Kenshin, 0.629032
9. Daikichi, 0.616667

Next round should be up within a half-hour of this posting.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 12791
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:38 pm Reply with quote
Round 5: Group Finals is now closed.

Results can be found here.

And now we’re taking all of the Group Finals together! Daikichi has been getting by on razor-thin victory margins the last two rounds; has he finally met his match? Can either Chihiro or Kyoko stand against Scar? Can Kenshin siphon enough votes from Youko to be competitive? And in the likely closest match, who will prevail between Simon and Saber? Let’s find out!

Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop

Group B Final
Chihiro, Spirited Away
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!
vs.
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero


Last edited by Key on Mon May 13, 2013 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ggultra2764
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 2758
Location: New York state.

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:31 am Reply with quote
Been a while, but guess I'll claim dibs on first vote:

Group A Final: Fakir (Princess Tutu)
A rather easy choice to make here. As endearing as Daikichi's developments are at learning to how to raise Rin, Fakir undergoes far more significant improvement at learning to trust others and become less possessive of Mytho, traits that allow him to become one of Duck's major allies towards the later episodes of Princess Tutu.

Group B Final: Scar (Fullmetal Alchemist franchise)
I'm quite surprised at how far Scar's gone in this group considering I had him set to be picked off much earlier in my mini-game. But nonetheless, I find his improvements more greater here as learns to let go of his hatred for Amestris from his tragic past to put his efforts towards fighting the true enemy responsible for his suffering and aiding those he once considered foes.

Group C Final: Youko Nakajima (Twelve Kingdoms)
The Nakajima steamroller continues crushing the opposition.

I guess I should cover why I think Youko seems set to even win this tournament. Unlike the remaining participants involved in this tournament, Youko is shown to undergo two significant phases of improvement in Twelve Kingdoms: getting over her timid and submissive personality in the title's first arc to rise and claim the throne to ruling the kingdom of Kei and better understanding the responsibilities of her position and serving the kingdom's populace for the title's third arc. The first arc shows the significant changes to her character as she adjusts to life in the new world she inhabits and realizing that her submissive personality isn't gonna get her anywhere with surviving in her unfamiliar surroundings. The third arc starts with her completely unfamiliar with the political affairs of her kingdoms and the concerns of the populace, leading her to take on the guise of a civilian to better understand the issues affecting the commoners and learning of the political corruption being committed by some of her officials. Outside of assisting in an uprising upon learning of these developments, the experiences give Youko a much better understanding of her kingdom's affairs and allow her to make smarter and more well-informed decisions as Kei's Queen.

Group D Final: Saber (Fate franchise)
Simon's mentioned regression in improvement from the last round hurts him badly here against Saber, who underwent some pretty significant growth in Fate/ Stay Night where she regains her humanity and learns to accept responsibility for her past mistakes as a king instead of trying to undo them through a wish to the Grail.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1616

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:10 am Reply with quote
Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop

It doesn’t seem like Daikichi is a stronger contender than Fakir, so I’m voting for Fakir.

Group B Final
Chihiro, Spirited Away
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!
vs.
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

Kyoko Mogami, because I genuinely find her the most entertaining out of the three characters. Initially, she is a doormat that changes into a person driven by revenge in the first episodes, but as the series progresses, she slowly comes to like acting and lets go of her initially petty reasons for doing it. She also finds an interesting way to help the daughter of the president of the talent agency who is racked with guilt over her mother’s death to get over it. Compared with Scar, whose story is nothing out of ordinary, and Chihiro, who is a normal child that goes through some good development, but nothing indicates that she needs to overcome any major flaw, Kyoko is the strongest choice.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Youko, who starts as a whining girl and becomes a capable queen, remains unbeatable.

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

The arguments from the previous round convinced me that Simon while not the strongest contender in the tournament is still a better choice than Saber. To put it simply, being able to save the world > regaining feelings.
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classicalzawa
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 5365

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:38 am Reply with quote
Group A Final: Fakir-I'm just gonna predict the final to be Fakir vs Youko at this point. It's not easy to go from most hated to most liked character to many viewers without changes as big as his. And he definitely could've stayed a jerk the whole time if he wanted.

Group B Final: Kyoko Mogami-I don't think anyone in this final is hot stuff. I've said before that we don't even know if Chihiro's lessons stuck and I having seen both the 2003 FMA and read the manga, I don't remember a damn thing about Scar's development except that, to me at least, he seems to merely agree to a stalemate on killing alchemists and when he learns more, he looked pretty comfortable joining the Elrics to me. I've only read the first few volumes of Skip Beat, but Kyoko's still impressed me more than these two.

Group C Final: Youko Nakajima-if she had been against Hikaru, I would've voted for him on the basis that she shouldn't have a shut out against a character that good, but against Kenshin instead, so it's a no-brainer. After getting over being in a strange land, it's really the third arc that makes her awesome, as she actually goes out among the people to learn what they want from a ruler so that she doesn't fail like so many before her. It's the sort of thing I wish real life politicians did.

Group D Final: Simon-starts a wimp, becomes a hero. But there is more than one way to become a hero, and I appreciate that Simon realizes that and isn't an attention hog. He really does become the hero the world needs and I love the epilogue showing what he does with it at the end.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:16 am Reply with quote
Alas, Tsume is gone Sad I thought he had a chance there at the end, since it was tied when I went to sleep.

The upside is that I had picked Saber to win in the minigame so I got 3/4, which is the best I could do since I had picked Chiaki to win for C-22.

Anyway, on with the voting:

Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu


There really is no competition here. I actually rewatched both first episodes of these shows recently and, while I believe that a good number of people were selling Daikichi's improvements short, he just cannot compete here.

Group B Final
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

So, this is Kyoko vs Scar for me. Equally familiar with both but the arguments for Scar have convinced me a bit more and I'm quite sad/annoyed that I seriously underrated him in my mini-game and had him out in round 3.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms

Eh, Kenshin beat the only other character who would have caused me to question Youko's Group C victory but I'm still not entirely convinced he should have. So I'll continue with Youko here and look forward to what I think is her fairly inevitable match-up with Fakir in the final (of course, now that I've said that, let's see something unexpected happen).

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann

Both candidates here have had arguments for and against them and I've been more convinced by the ones for Simon than Saber.
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Ggultra2764
Collector ExtraordinaireCollector Extraordinaire


Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 2758
Location: New York state.

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:01 am Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
To put it simply, being able to save the world > regaining feelings.


Not trying to argue against your decision, but you do realize Saber does the exact same thing as Simon in Fate/ Stay Night upon realizing the spoiler[true nature of the Holy Grail], right?
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 7814
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:07 pm Reply with quote
Group A Final

Fakir - While I honestly don't see what's supposed to be so great about him, it sounds like he deserves the vote more than Daikichi does.

Group B Final

Scar - He definitely is leaps and bounds over both competitors. Chihiro was never that bad in the first place, especially considering the parents she had to work with. While Kyouko is a great character she only really improves in acting ability. The improvement she needed to make the most, that is, learning to love again, barely gets touched upon in the anime.

Group C Final

Youko - You know what? After thinking on it a bit I'm going to just treat Youko as a low rent Gaara. They go through similar paths but Gaara definitely deserves to be on here more. Still not sure why he isn't. Sounds like the only thing Youko has over him is amount of screen time.

Group D Final

Saber - Another thing about this tournament that gets me scratching my head is when people say "Arguments have convinced me towards ____", especially when arguments to the contrary are more numerous and more persuasive. Let's look again at why Simon doesn't actually improve.

Before Simon would use his head in a fight, like the time he used well placed drills to destroy the ground under Dai-Gunzan. After he would just brute force things and that got him in hot water with the populace.

He never really became a good leader. He lead the charge against the Spiral King well enough, but later he would just laze about and not actually do any leading, forcing Rossiu to pick up the slack. His irresponsible acts got his people calling for his blood. Definitely not a sign of good leadership. The only ones who would follow him were his close friends, spoiler[most of which got killed because of it.]

He saves the universe through plot convenience and what does he do afterwards?spoiler[ He abandons all his friends and responsibilities to become a hobo.]

Where's the improvement again?

Saber wanted to essentially abandon her responsibilities as well, but her improvement caused her to give up on that notion and accept what happened.

Let's bring Fate/Zero into this too. The series served to solidify Saber's resolve even further. After the horrible things that happened, what her relationship with Kiritsugu made her realise, and a certain ghost from her past made her all the more determined to undo her life to prevent it all from happening. And yet in the face of all that tragedy she learns to accept her life and move on.

Shiro helped her realise this, yes, but she didn't need to fall in love with him for that to happen either. Look at Unlimited Blade Words: all it takes is watching Shiro and Archer's battle to realise how foolish she was being.

In both the TV series and the movie that blissful smile she gives before spoiler[disappearing] says it all.


Last edited by Vaisaga on Tue May 07, 2013 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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