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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3068
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:41 pm Reply with quote
Never seen Honey and Clover and I think Code Geass is the anime equivalent to Battlefield Earth just replace Dutch Angles with characters inappropiately hamming it up.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1818
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:13 pm Reply with quote
potatochobit don't make jokes like that even if it is irionic.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:03 pm Reply with quote
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
Exaar wrote:
I wouldn't call that a hero of either type, because a hero has to be.. well, heroic, one way or another. Izayoi doesn't come off as a hero at all, he comes off as an arrogant jerk who is only helping the no-names because he finds it amusing to crush even more arrogant gods for fun. And I love that.


I have to disagree with your characterization of Izayoi here. If he didn't care deeply about the people he's decided to help, he wouldn't go out of his way to try and make Jin Russel the banner cry for their community. He doesn't even brag about his accomplishments-- in the Leticia episode, Izayoi rolls up with these two gifts he got in his spare time and is basically, "Oh, yeah, you should use these. I won them the other day."

If he was completely an arrogant ass, that'd be one thing. But they're painting him to be this ultra strong, smart, generous do-gooder.


Early on, I think episode 2, He even tells Black Rabbit that siding with the No Names would be "romantic". It kind of made me like him.

But yeah, it's a stupid show. It's just an entertaining stupid show. So I keep watching it. It's not the only one I'm watching this season, since there are plenty to choose from.

Speaking of which, I dropped Amnesia, but am probably the only person still watching Cuticle Detective Inaba. The show is actually funny if you have recently watched Arashi no Yoru ni and are toasted from a few cocktails.

Wink
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2939
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:58 pm Reply with quote
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
Exaar wrote:
I wouldn't call that a hero of either type, because a hero has to be.. well, heroic, one way or another. Izayoi doesn't come off as a hero at all, he comes off as an arrogant jerk who is only helping the no-names because he finds it amusing to crush even more arrogant gods for fun. And I love that.


I have to disagree with your characterization of Izayoi here. If he didn't care deeply about the people he's decided to help, he wouldn't go out of his way to try and make Jin Russel the banner cry for their community. He doesn't even brag about his accomplishments-- in the Leticia episode, Izayoi rolls up with these two gifts he got in his spare time and is basically, "Oh, yeah, you should use these. I won them the other day."

If he was completely an arrogant ass, that'd be one thing. But they're painting him to be this ultra strong, smart, generous do-gooder.


I can agree that Izayoi is not made out to be a total ass. He is essentially an arrogant good guy who helps the helpless, so in that sense he is somewhat heroic. However, he is also not Superman.

Izayoi's heroics seem to be in some substantial part a byproduct of his showy, fun-loving antics. To put this in D&D terminology, Superman is Lawful Good, and Izayoi is Chaotic Good, sort of. Izayoi almost seems like he's straddling somewhere between good and neutral, but the fact that he is helping the nameless community probably moves him more to the good side of things.

Chaotic Good characters are always interesting in anime, particularly given the social environment in Japan which I think discourages chaos and tends more towards encouraging lawfulness. So, chaotic good characters have a kind of attractive taboo to them. That makes Izayoi an inherently appealing character type even with his seeming invincibility. Also, the fact that he is going into this exciting new fantasy world full of rules and expectations, and tearing down cruel gods and structures put in place to oppress the masses, that gives him a kind of romanticized populist appeal as well.

It is true that Izayoi also being super smart and confident and physically attractive does tend to make him seem like this unrealistically perfect guy who might just be a Gary Stu. However, his personality is flawed. Don't forget, he's still a pretty immature kid and clearly portrayed as an unapologetic pervert. I get the impression that Gary Stu types are more often portrayed as exceptionally mature for their age, and theoretically chaste (since someone else brought up Kirito from SAO, I think he is a perfect example of this distinction.)

Also, chew on this for a moment... tell me which of the many girls in Problem Children has fallen head over heels in love with Izayoi or even had a serious crush on him? Which of the many girls has offered to cook for him or had him trip over something in front of them so he could 'accidentally' fall on them and grope them up? The answer is none. The only girl in the show who has even shown an inkling of feelings toward Izayoi is Black Rabbit, but that hasn't really progressed beyond the "blushing" stage. I think that, in and of itself, is a major accomplishment for an anime these days with this kind of girl to boy ratio, and also undercuts Izayoi's Gary Stu status by quite a bit.

As I said before, I am certainly hoping that Izayoi ends up with a deeply developed background, just as I hope all of the problem children do. This show could be a real gem if it does its homework in that area, because the intrigue and excitement are already there in a big way.
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jymmy



Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 1237
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:33 pm Reply with quote
Being an immature pervert does not make him a flawed character, because no one reacts as though they're flaws. His perverted antics are only ever played for comedy, and for all his immaturity, the one time he has a fight he can't win, he gives up without fighting. That would have been the perfect opportunity to show his immaturity and excessive confidence as a flaw, but instead the situation was resolved with him being totally rational and calm.

I do like that none of the girls are fawning over him 24/7, though. It's refreshing.
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Galap
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Maidenoftheredhand wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Regarding From the New World: I disagree with Bamboo's comment about the Monster Rats. I think Squealer and his spoiler["evil?" plot to destroy the human race] is the most compelling thing that the show has going for it right now. Certainly, there is a very interesting tale to be told on the single level of the human society and its problems since the advent of Cantus. However, I like the fact that the writing in From the New World wasn't afraid to tell a multi tiered story. The individual stories of the evolution of human society and the monster rat society give us some nice intrigue on their own. However, above that we have this grander story about the failings of human vanity/pride, questions about the legitimacy behind gods and religion,the cruelty of human existence, questions on nature vs. nurture, and the question of what does equality truly mean to us. Sure, the show has been a bit erratic at times, but on the whole I think it has been an enlightening experience.


Agreed, although perhaps I am biased in regards to the Monster rats since I feel Squealer is one of the best antagonists of the year. I also really enjoy the few scenes of Kiromaru.

But that being said I have to question the following from Bamboo's review of the series

Quote:
I want the human side of things


Quite honestly in my opinion "the human side of things" is all we are getting from this series. Don't get me wrong the monster rats play a large part in the story but so far we have seen everything from the human perspective.

The humans have created a system to deal with things internally but they completely ignored any external threats and this is the result. In the end what is going on with the monster rats is tied into the human side of the story and I believe if my theory about them is correct its tied in even more than you may think.


Not to put words in her mouth, but by 'the human side of things', I think she means that she'd like to see the humans' internal conflicts brought to the foreground more, rather than the conflict between the humans and rats.

Personally, I think this story is great because it is so multifaceted. The humans' internal conflict, the conflict with the rats, the gradual building of the setting, and the emotional and intellectual dynamics of the characters all add together to create a really rich environment, one that makes you keep thinking about it and its intricacies. I think the balance of all these elements is about right; so far this is one of my favorite anime ever. Exactly how much so remains to be seen, but if these final episodes progress in a way that's more complex and revealing (for example if my sense that certain things that have been implied to be going on ends up being accurate), the show could become my favorite.
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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Posts: 11368
Location: Earth
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Problem children are coming from another world, aren't they? is actually quite enjoyable for me so far but otherwise, a weak Winter season imo. From the current lineup, I'm enjoying Chihayafuru 2, Psycho-Pass, Shinsekai Yori, and Sakurasou Pet no Kanojo.

Oh and although not on the list, Zettai Karen Children Unlimited is also worth watching imo. So glad that got a manga adaptation recently.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5087
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:50 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Also, chew on this for a moment... tell me which of the many girls in Problem Children has fallen head over heels in love with Izayoi or even had a serious crush on him?


At this point, more girls are fawning over Asuka than Izayoi.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:

Also, chew on this for a moment... tell me which of the many girls in Problem Children has fallen head over heels in love with Izayoi or even had a serious crush on him?


At this point, more girls are fawning over Asuka than Izayoi.


...I don't care how tight your yuri goggles are, that's just flat-out wrong.

There's barely any romance in this show to begin with.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:32 pm Reply with quote
jymmy wrote:
Being an immature pervert does not make him a flawed character, because no one reacts as though they're flaws. His perverted antics are only ever played for comedy, and for all his immaturity, the one time he has a fight he can't win, he gives up without fighting. That would have been the perfect opportunity to show his immaturity and excessive confidence as a flaw, but instead the situation was resolved with him being totally rational and calm.

I do like that none of the girls are fawning over him 24/7, though. It's refreshing.

So I don't watch problem children (though all this hub-bub about it is starting to make want to check it out for what it's worth), but based on what everyone has been saying about the character I'm not following your argument. The characters in the story don't have to react to a character flaw for it to exist as as a character flaw. Further, how is Izayoi's choice to give up when faced with a fight he can't win not seen as immature? The mature thing to do would be stick it out and see the fight through even knowing that he probably had no chance at winning. Giving up when winning seems unlikely is what an immature child would do. The fact that he was calm about quitting doesn't make his decision any less immature.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Ever heard the phrase "tactical withdrawal"?
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5087
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:05 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
Further, how is Izayoi's choice to give up when faced with a fight he can't win not seen as immature? The mature thing to do would be stick it out and see the fight through even knowing that he probably had no chance at winning. Giving up when winning seems unlikely is what an immature child would do. The fact that he was calm about quitting doesn't make his decision any less immature.


Wait what? This is like, completely backwards.
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ANN_Bamboo
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Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:12 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:

So I don't watch problem children (though all this hub-bub about it is starting to make want to check it out for what it's worth), but based on what everyone has been saying about the character I'm not following your argument. The characters in the story don't have to react to a character flaw for it to exist as as a character flaw. Further, how is Izayoi's choice to give up when faced with a fight he can't win not seen as immature? The mature thing to do would be stick it out and see the fight through even knowing that he probably had no chance at winning. Giving up when winning seems unlikely is what an immature child would do. The fact that he was calm about quitting doesn't make his decision any less immature.


That is a bizarre comment to make. If you already know you're going to lose a fight-- and in the case of a physical fight, sustain bodily harm-- why would you just stick it out and let yourself be pounded to a pulp? It has nothing to do with your skewed views of maturity-- the SMART thing to do is to strategically withdraw.

The immature thing to do would be to uphold some cloak of blind machismo because you're too boneheaded to know when to withdraw. The best military leaders know when to attack, and when to fall back.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:44 am Reply with quote
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
kakoishii wrote:

So I don't watch problem children (though all this hub-bub about it is starting to make want to check it out for what it's worth), but based on what everyone has been saying about the character I'm not following your argument. The characters in the story don't have to react to a character flaw for it to exist as as a character flaw. Further, how is Izayoi's choice to give up when faced with a fight he can't win not seen as immature? The mature thing to do would be stick it out and see the fight through even knowing that he probably had no chance at winning. Giving up when winning seems unlikely is what an immature child would do. The fact that he was calm about quitting doesn't make his decision any less immature.


That is a bizarre comment to make. If you already know you're going to lose a fight-- and in the case of a physical fight, sustain bodily harm-- why would you just stick it out and let yourself be pounded to a pulp? It has nothing to do with your skewed views of maturity-- the SMART thing to do is to strategically withdraw.

The immature thing to do would be to uphold some cloak of blind machismo because you're too boneheaded to know when to withdraw. The best military leaders know when to attack, and when to fall back.

I suppose my statement is born from my viewpoint. When I think of someone who is used to winning because they happen to be awesome at whatever, but don't have the maturity to not let their own arrogance get out of hand, I picture a child tossing a checkers board when they know they're going to lose but don't want to go through whatever shame they'd feel if they were to lose. Sure no one likes to lose, and if the aim is to win then giving up might be seen as "smart," but you lose out on the learning experience that losing brings which helps to create a more tempered, humble person. But I guess the bodily harm brings in another dynamic to the whole thing. But even with that in consideration, aren't heroes like Izayoi normally protected by plot armor?
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5232
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:51 am Reply with quote
I don't know anything about Mondai-ji-tachi but according to anime laws, giving up in the middle of the fight is not immature, just lame. It's not about knowing you can't win the fight, but to never entertain the thought of losing. Since it's anime, what you ought to do is scream your lungs out and produce a massive Kamehameha out of willpower alone.

Just my two cents
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