Forum - View topicINTEREST: Gundam's Zeon Empire Forms Sister State Alliance with Saitama
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nargun
Posts: 924 |
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Read the primary sources: these are widely availible and about as unambiguous as I can think. A few years ago I read a clause-by-clause comparison of the confederate and US constitutions: why-they-left is made pretty clear by the things they thought needed fixin'. There's also the state declarations of independence, and the history of the "fugitive slave act". [but mostly when I think of the confederacy I think "dumb-ass losers".] |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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The slavery issue had nothing to do with starting the war, though - it explains the Confederacy's existence, but not why things came to blows(there were Confederate diplomats in Washington from pretty much the beginning and quite a number of people were of the opinion "good riddance to bad rubbish"); Lincoln himself backed the Corwin amendment. Most of the initial war agitation came from the Republican power base over concern about the fact that the Confederate constitution had slipped in a clause forbidding protective tariffs(not for nothing did Lincoln reference it in his first inaugural).
And, of course, the primary reasons for the war are irrelevant to my statement about the implications of the outcome. Lord Acton certainly seemed optimistic about the Confederacy's ability to do good in spite of the slavery issue:
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TokyoGetter
 Posts: 416 Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards. |
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So... how extensive is your brain damage? |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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This thread is horrible and everyone involved should feel bad.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Could we stop it with the reasons the Confederates went to war? That has nothing to do with anything.
Oh, nothing compared to your own, if you couldn't even understand such a simple point. |
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prabb
 Posts: 86 |
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I think we should find a moral high ground a get pissed about Japanese cartoons because there is literally no difference between an anime and a Nazi.
spoiler[WHY DID YOU CAPITALIZE THE WORD "NAZI" PRABB!?!?] |
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kgw
 Posts: 1057 Location: Spain, EU |
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So... you don't think it's quite hypocrite to claim indignation because Saitama "allied" with a fictional country* and remain silent on real countries because... they are not anime? 
Besides, I'd like to know what's the answer to Disney joining the Galactic Empire (or vice versa). * Which killed none, has no Constitution pledging for the slavery (or the death) of any race. Just sayin'. |
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Animehermit
 Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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Well, you could argue that one of the reasons Zeon went to war with the Federation is because they wanted freedom from the oppression of the Earth Federation.
Sure Zeon did some horrible shit, but so did the federation. This is also not mentioning the fact that there were good people working for Zeon, and that the only real villains the series had were the Zabi family. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
I question whether the Zeons had a legitimate reason for going to war in the first place, but that's neither here nor there. Their reasons do not excuse killing billions of innocent people. If they wanted a war they should have fought a war, not carried out a genocide using gas and nuclear weapons. And the Zabi family weren't the only evil people. The rank-and-file who carried out the atrocities and knowingly supported the evil regime in the subsequent battles are also to blame. It's funny how Mobile Suit Gundam tries to pretend that both sides are grey and similar to one another when one side engaged in genocide and wiped out half the human race and the other one did not. Saying they are the same is like claiming that a mass-murderer is no different than a school bully, when there is actually a vast disparity between them. ---------- kgw, no I do not think it is hypocritical. The reasons for the American Civil War have nothing to do with the Zeons and Saitama Prefecture. I do rally against real countries. Frequently. But I try and do it in the appropriate places on the forums and on the internet in general. In this thread its off-topic. |
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Polycell
Posts: 4623 |
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Which is to say, neither of kgw's examples are inherently close to the implications of what Saitama's done. |
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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@dtm42
Zeon wasn't the only one who killed millions, the Federation killed millions too. Not to mention they used children to fight for them, which is something that Zeon mostly didn't do. Also keep in mind that Zeon did sign the Antarctic Treaty. I wouldn't blame the average German foot soldier in WWII for the actions of the entire Nazi party. So why should I with Zeon? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The Zeons killed billions. That's three orders of magnitude greater than what you say the Federation killed, and the Zeons slaughtered in a sneak attack with no justification as opposed to during a state of war.
Of course I don't blame the average German soldier for the crimes of the Nazi Party, just like I do not blame the average Zeon soldier for the crimes of the Zabi family. But I do hold each and every soldier to be responsible for his of her own individual actions, no matter their orders. Those billions the Zeons killed would never have died if the rank and file had refused to carry out such patently genocidal orders, and the holocaust would never have happened if the soldiers at the concentration camps had refused orders to murder Jews, Gypsies and other groups. People always say that people can't be expected to not follow orders, however there is always the option to refuse. An average colony has ten million civilians, including children; anyone who pushes the button and kills them in a sneak attack with no surrender offered definitely deserves to be called "evil", even if they were under orders at the time. Chain of command does not provide a catch-all shield to defend from actions of individual soldiers. In other words, soldiers cannot knowingly commit evil acts and then blame higher-ups for their own actions. Not morally. As for the Zeons signing the Antarctic Treaty, they only did so because their numerically inferior forces were exhausted and they were worried about reprise nuclear attacks from the Federation, as damn well they should have been. |
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shamisen the great
 Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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I think people are making too big a deal out of a silly publicity stunt.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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All I can say is that my beef existed before this article and is with the general sentiment of glorifying such a genocidal fascist culture. I look on various forums (including this one) and see people with the Zeon flag as their Avatar, or with signatures like "Sieg Zeon". I'm not picking on Saitama Prefecture, it was just the catalyst for this discussion. Instead I have an issue with everyone who shares the same sentiment, no matter who or what they are.
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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Someone can't think the flag was cool, or think that the speech was an interesting point in the series? They aren't glorifying what Zeon did or stood for, they are expressing their fandom of a show they like. This is like saying that wearing a Darth Vader pin is making light of the slaughter of and entire religion, it's completely ridiculous.
I myself have Char from Zeta as my avatar, not because I agree with his actions, but because he's a cool character. |
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