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asimpson2006 wrote:

mglittlerobin wrote:

I would have bought from Borders, had they not wanted me to pay retail price to order something online that I can find cheaper on Amazon.com.

That is also the reason why I for the most part stopped most things at B%M stores. If the B&M stores had better pricing to keep up with online stores I would probably buy more from B&M out of convenience.

If B&M stores have prices comparable to online stores, they wouldn't be B&M stores. You'd go drive to their store and order off their website. Laughing

matrixdude wrote:

Outch, they should be getting something from the remains of borders though. Won't be much at all, but it'll be something.

Almost certainly not. This sort of debt is "unsecured debt" (as opposed to bank loans, which are "secured"). In a bankruptcy situation almost all unsecured debt gets dismissed outright, and even if Borders goes into liquidation the secured debt gets paid back first, and there would likely not be enough in assets to cover all of that.

Suuuuuure tokyopop, blame everyone but yourself for the layoffs.

That crap you put on G4 such as shows with a ghetto hyperactice guy named "big c" regarding cars and female asses didn't make the situation any worse huh?

PetrifiedJello wrote:

The fact Borders had a substantial debt to pay publishers is a pretty good indication the problem isn't with Borders.

I don't understand this statement at all. You are aware that most corporations in the US work purchase and sell things on debt/credit system.

It's a little thing called accounts payable and accounts receivable that you see on nearly 100% of SEC financial filings for publicly traded companies. It's not as foreign or crazy a concept as you make it out to be. Even on a consumer level most people have credit cards that provide similar functionality.

But ignoring all of that and the reality of how businesses actually work, how is Borders having debt not a Borders issue?

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

But ignoring all of that and the reality of how businesses actually work, how is Borders having debt not a Borders issue?

The biggest problem is Borders paying the debt with another "credit card." Borders have been getting loans for a while now to pay the bills. There is a point when enough is enough. Otherwise, I believe Borders has been paying the publishers until a few months ago. Borders could not get another loan without a bankruptcy proceeding. I personally think Borders is in the same boat as Blockbuster.

chrisc1978 wrote:

Jaymie wrote:

No, it's because of the money squandered away for America's Greatest Otaku. The cost of the minibus, hotel rooms, and gas to travel across the freaking country could've easily went towards the employee's wages instead.

You don't see Viz, Yen, Dark Horse, Seven Seas, Vertical, Kodansha, or Digital Manga laying people off because of Borders.

Vertical was bought-out by Kodansha, & Dai Nippon Printing animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-02-23/kodansha-dai-nippon-printing-buy-vertical

Kodansha International Shut Down animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-03-03/kodansha-international-to-shut-down-by-april

Not that it matters to me I don't read manga.

Vertical was doing so good publishing manga, they were bought up by Japanese power house Kodansha. Kodansha international was a redundancy since they have Vertical now and have been building their newer Kodansha USA division. They finally got around to announcing this old department closing. Vertical is doing better than TokyoPop being bought out like this. They wish they got bought out by a giant like Kodansha. Vertical was always more of a cult arthouse publisher anyway. They're like manga's own Criterion Collection.

Paploo wrote:

Jaymie wrote:

I forgot about Priest. That's also going to be a big problem for Tokyopop. They're putting a lot of emphasis on Priest, even creating a brand new series (Priest: Purgatory) to help promote it.

The thing is, Priest is going to be a big-time box office flop. I doubt it'll even break even. Soooo... Confused

A 4 issue comic book miniseries is pretty standard in the world of comic book marketing. Not really that unusual. I think they licensed his new series, and it looks to still be in print- it was generally a well selling series for them in the past [they even put out an Artbook for it].

Usually when a book is adapted into a movie, the publisher promotes the original series. The movie is such a horrible adaptation, they had to create an American comic for the damn series. The movie looks more like a Judge Dread remake with vampires and religious overtones than anything like the book. Plus I find it funny the thing's being promoted as a 'graphic novel'. What happened to TokyoPop being the company for 'manga'. You know, even if the book was actually manhwa.

Of course whether this makes the movie bomb or not is irrelevant. Though turds like the Michael Bay Transformers movies do well at th BO, so who knows what's going to work. Quality doesn't mean sales and vice versa.

Teriyaki Terrier wrote:

Jaymie wrote:

No, it's because of the money squandered away for America's Greatest Otaku. The cost of the minibus, hotel rooms, and gas to travel across the freaking country could've easily went towards the employee's wages instead.

You don't see Viz, Yen, Dark Horse, Seven Seas, Vertical, Kodansha, or Digital Manga laying people off because of Borders.

Bingo! You hit the nail square on the head there. Seriously Stu, take responsibility for your mistakes and don't blame others. You don't see any of the other big manga companies directly because of Borders now do you?

All that wasted money spent on the that idiotic America's Greatest Otaku could have easily went towards the employee's wages and helped them out. It's actually really sad to see a once great company become what they are today. And what is worse is that this all could have been prevented fairly easily.

Wrong, for one, that show was produced from 2009-2010. Borders hasn't been airing out their dirty laundry for that long. I'm sure TP didn't even know about this until they were nearly if not completely finished with AGO.

Second, why does everyone seem to forget, that 5-6 yrs ago, Borders was the only retail store you could buy manga in?

Ofc, borders going bankrupt is going to have a huge affect on the American manga publishers.

As for Viz and others. You have to look at their properties. Do you think Viz will ever be in trouble while "The big three" are still publishing?

Yen's got Black Butler, Haruhi, etc.

Dark Horse has still got their hands on huge sellers...i.e. Blade of the Immortal, Berserk, Oh! My Goddess, etc. All old but still huge sellers. Not to mention the NGE spinoffs, etc.

Kodansha is self explanitory.

And, DMP took over the BL market.

What have TP pick up lately? Neko Ramen?
Yea, they have Maid sama, Maria Holic, Hetalia, Alice, etc. but none of these are big like the above mentioned.

That my friends, on top of the Borders fiasco, is why TP is having problems.

Edit: And, I have no idea why Seven Seas stays "afloat". I'm sure grabbing Toradara! will help, but I can't imagine all those self-published OEL's are doing that great. I guess they did announce a sequel to Amazing Agent Luna, so it must sell well enough?

MrHatandClogs wrote:

What have TP pick up lately? Neko Ramen?
Yea, they have Maid sama, Maria Holic, Hetalia, Alice, etc. but none of these are big like the above mentioned.

That my friends, on top of the Borders fiasco, is why TP is having problems.

Hetalia is a lot more popular than anything Dark Horse publishes. Also Dark Horse rarely gets huge popular manga, Oh My Goddess peaked 10 years ago. It's just that Dark Horse knows it's limits and doesn't try to do too much.

Quote:

It's just that Dark Horse knows it's limits and doesn't try to do too much.

Exactly. Manga series don't have to do great, they just have to do well enough to stay profitable as long as they are in print. Dark Horse has found a comfortable little niche, made a name for itself and is now reaping the benefits. It's the same with Vertical.

Tokyopop went with a whole different business strategy for way too long. They gambled on big hits even though they (and the industry as a whole) weren't in the position to do so anymore.

MrHatandClogs wrote:

Edit: And, I have no idea why Seven Seas stays "afloat". I'm sure grabbing Toradara! will help, but I can't imagine all those self-published OEL's are doing that great. I guess they did announce a sequel to Amazing Agent Luna, so it must sell well enough?

Dance in the Vampire Bund ring a bell. I'm pretty sure that series is doing well for for them. If I had to guess I would say that is most likely one of their top selling if not their top selling series than have right now.

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

I don't understand this statement at all.

I'm surprised by this, given how much detail you put into your post. You seem to understand the issue pretty well.

Justin's comments about the industry were true once, but they're no longer valid in a shrinking market. It's rather foolish to apply those same business rules of 15 years ago to retailers today.

The market is shrinking, and Tokyopop has the nerve to blame Borders for its financial issues?

There was a "sustainable" monopoly 15 years ago. The internet has proven the monopoly is no longer sustainable.

The completely misinformed armchair quarterbacking in this thread is giving me a migraine.

Let me try one more time: All distribution to retailers, especially big powerful ones, are done on credit or consignment. ALL of it. Everything you see at Rite Aid, Walmart, Best Buy and Borders is shipped first and invoiced later. If you don't play ball, your product doesn't get stocked. Simple as that. Does it suck for small companies? Does it lead to large retail chains, regardless of how they're doing, abusing small companies because they can? Yes, yes and yes. It's why so many distribute through middlemen distributors just to get a little more muscle in getting paid.

But a publisher as small as Tokyopop does not get a say in changing the system with a big retail chain. They just stop getting stocked if they don't like it. So there was no other way than to continue taking Borders' "credit card" unless they were willing to throw away 50% of their business forever. Period.

PetrifiedJello wrote:

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

I don't understand this statement at all.

I'm surprised by this, given how much detail you put into your post. You seem to understand the issue pretty well.

Justin's comments about the industry were true once, but they're no longer valid in a shrinking market. It's rather foolish to apply those same business rules of 15 years ago to retailers today.

The market is shrinking, and Tokyopop has the nerve to blame Borders for its financial issues?

There was a "sustainable" monopoly 15 years ago. The internet has proven the monopoly is no longer sustainable.

Selling things on credit is how business works in the US. The concepts of credit and debt aren't foolish and archaic business rules that shouldn't be applied today. I'm not talking about anything other than that and the person who said that a customer who's responsible for 50% of Tokyopop's sales not paying them money owed can't be pointed to as a cause for Tokyopop's financial burdens.

MrHatandClogs wrote:

As for Viz and others. You have to look at their properties. Do you think Viz will ever be in trouble while "The big three" are still publishing?

I think the big three don't sell as well as you think they do. (They aren't Viz's 3 biggest series per vol.)

Quote:

Dark Horse has still got their hands on huge sellers...i.e. Blade of the Immortal, Berserk, Oh! My Goddess, etc. All old but still huge sellers. Not to mention the NGE spinoffs, etc.

At least in B&M, none of those are huge sellers. Hellsing is their huge seller.

Quote:

What have TP pick up lately? Neko Ramen?
Yea, they have Maid sama, Maria Holic, Hetalia, Alice, etc. but none of these are big like the above mentioned.

Hetalia and Alice are bigger than almost every property you named through traditional chains.

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

Selling things on credit is how business works in the US.

Okay, let me spill this out for everyone, because it seems the obvious is being missed out: When a business sells only one thing, and the market demand for this one thing shrinks, it's inevitable businesses will be affected when they refuse to find something else to sell.

This isn't "armchair quarterbacking". It's Business 101 and Economics 101.

Tell me I'm wrong and I'll point you to Blockbuster, GM, newspapers, and Suncoast, just to name a few who also failed because of a shrinking market.

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