Forum - View topicFlowers Of Evil (TV).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Uh, no. Flowers of Evil isn't a biographical documentary of a certain group of real people. No doubt these characters are based on real people, but of course they are supposed to represent something more than just themselves. Also, don't assume that each of the characters matches point for point someone who is real. Like all fictional stories, no doubt creative license was taken. |
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danilo07
 Posts: 1580 |
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I never really got that idea,perhaps it is because Kasuga has reminded so much of my own adolescent experience that I could hardly see him as just representation of passive Japanese men. Also usually when you want your characters to represent something you give them two to three traits and you are done with that.Like in "Le Père Goriot" in which Goriots daughters are meant to represent greedy French people,now if you were to describe these daughters you could only say they are greedy,shallow and cold-hearted.You couldnt give any more details about them,because the author wasnt dealing with them like human beings but rather as a mere representation.If I were to describe Kasuga I wouldn't say he is passive and stop right there,to me he feels like an actual human being. Also like Bonham originally said you would have big trouble of putting Nakamura into any category. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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@ danilo07 - when I say the characters represent more than themselves, I didn't mean to suggest that they are simple cardboard cut-outs designed to represent a single "idea." I merely meant that FoE is dealing with a number of themes and the characterization we see is part and parcel of the themes. Kasuga is passive, a lot of the time, but he doesn't merely represent "passivity." He makes mistakes that are familiar to us all: idealizing a girl instead of seeing her for who she really is, adopting a pretentious pose in a sad attempt to feel superior to our surroundings, etc. Kasuga is very much a character, not a Type. That's all I was trying to convey. The post of yours that I was responding to made it seem like you were suggesting that none of the characters represented anything beyond their biographical details which I don't think is true.
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Well, I loved the rotoscoping and the perversely enthralling faces of all the characters. I appreciated their realistic body shapes and their twitchy movements, even when they were apparently still. I thought the artwork was marvellous, especially the decaying town and, where it appeared, the rampant vegetation - reflecting, of course, the barely suppressed ripeness of Kasuga and Seiki. I was entranced by its slow pace: menacing and suggestive of sexual repression. I particularly welcomed the refreshing way that a high school anime was presented and how the director thumbed his nose at the narrow creative parameters expected by some of the anime audience. The best things, however, were the amazing OP & ED songs.
Against all that, the inconclusive ending and three pathologically silly main characters brought the series down. And, while I liked the the mood created by the slow pace I found the development of the story inconsequential, although there were some very powerful moments. Like several others here I find myself ambilvalent about it as a package. Rating: good. |
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danilo07
Posts: 1580 |
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@Blood- No ,I think that poster to which I was responding simply thought of everyone in the series as type rather than a character,it was a counter argument that characters are based on real people and that they act like human beings (which I phrased rather badly with" they just act like who they are" which in context of what I was saying can easily interpreted as me thinking this anime is a entirely a true story). I am not silly enough to think of this as biographical documentary.
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Bonham
 Posts: 419 Location: NYC |
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"Pretentious" has become a buzzword—it has no substance because it's so widespread and misapplied, and it doesn't actually say anything about the work. It has the same amount of substance behind it as "slow," "confusing," "boring," "artsy," etc. Those are generalities, and there's no need to be nasty about it. Plus, assuming complete creative intent by the creators, as well as setting up a divide between people who hate it and those who love it isn't productive for discussion, either—I'm of the opinion that it's a very interesting disappointment, while others range from hatred to love, and those same people can love "non-artsy" and "artsy" things alike. Hell, one of my friends in my sophomore year thought Black Swan was slow, and she said she didn't like movies that. Black Swan may not be your average summer blockbuster, but the idea of it being "slow" is mind-boggling to me. And while I haven't seen it, I doubt the director of Detroit Metal City thinks he's above other people.
Except I don't—it's not an either/or scenario. I'm just interested in noticing trends within fiction, considering the idea of an incredibly passive male protagonist isn't an uncommon trait among modern anime. That's just one thing that makes me wonder, "What has caused this? And as for episode 10, that just shows spoiler[Kasuga breaking down and straight-up admitting what we knew all along in regards to his indecisiveness and pretentiousness (there's that word!). It's not that we learn anything new, but rather things are out in the open.] Not sure if we need spoilers of past episodes now or not... Also want to say that, despite the odd quirks that sometimes rear their ugly heads—the girl with manly sideburns making infrequent appearances, two (maybe three, would have to rewatch it) specific shots making the march in episode eight become a lot longer than it needs to for the effect the staff are going for, etc.—it seems the most common thread of complaints for people in this thread belong with the characters. I get that fans of the manga would have wanted a more conventional production, or at least one without rotoscoping and slightly faster pacing in parts, but I think without those "distractions" people would focus more on the characters. And frankly Kasuga and Nakamura are incorrigible little shits. Part of it is Kasuga's eternal inability to make even one right decision—sometimes to the detriment of the writing, as Nothing Good Can Happen—but it's also just the fact that these are teenagers whose hang-ups are largely self-inflicted. We stay with them and in Kasuga's head for so long that we don't explore any external factors that could have shaped them into what they are. (Well, I guess his father's influence in more artistic interests is there, but that's just one aspect, rather than a key to the puzzle.) |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Yeah, for me the motivations and attitudes of both Nakamura and Kasuga were real ciphers to me. Nakamura's alienation is pretty extreme (and apparently not a recent development) yet the only hint we have any kind of underlying cause is that her parents are divorced and her mother isn't in her life.
Her opinion that everybody in the town is a "shit-face" seems to revolve around the notion that everyone just wants to have sex but won't admit it openly. Or does she disapprove of people wanting to have sex? I dunno, it's hard to say. Kasuga is more straightforward: he's passive and tries to hide his feelings of inferiority behind an "intellectual" pose. Nakamura doesn't strike me as being overly stupid, so if she thinks everyone in her town is a "shit-face," what is the basis for her hope or optimism that people are any different somewhere else? They don't seem to be playing the "people suck in this small, provincial town but if I make it to the big city, everyone there is so much better and sophisticated!" card. All in all, it goes back to not really being given enough information to start processing the attitudes of the two characters, so it does become rather easy and tempting to dismiss them as "incorrigible little shits" to borrow Bonham's nice turn of phrase. |
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ConanSan
Posts: 1818 |
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So, yeah, given what happened between those comments and the events of the last episode, a begging plead for more money from a crowd they had spurn, pretentious is just about right. |
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Bonham
Posts: 419 Location: NYC |
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As much as the actual plot and characters frustrate the hell out of me, formally this show really, really makes me hope Nagahama finds work on something original after all of this (or at least something that's not Flowers of Evil). Kasuga's dream in episode 11 is just stunning. While the cinematography as a whole seemed to become more impressively apparently from around episode eight on, the rhythm, compositions and colors of that sequence are just plain beautiful. That scene alone showcases his talent, and I'd hate to see it squandered.
Even then I find that to be a shaky potential source of motivation. We're not really given the impression that an absent mother really affected her.
The flashbacks of her constantly screaming, along with recalling other incidents—such as the pool—just make her seem like a whiny five year old in a teenager's body.
I'm going to guess that you're a fan of the original manga, right? So what if I told you that those remarks were made solely by the manga-ka, and not the anime staff:
Oshimi comes across as a troll, and it would be the first time I would have heard a troll described as pretentious. While Nagahama, as he's come across in the Mushi-shi interview included on Funimation's release in the series, as well as remarks elsewhere, seems... well, normal. And I just saw the last episode. Not sure where people are getting the "begging" from, outside of the manga-ka's final comments... but those feel more like a continuation of his troll persona more than anything. The montage is more of a teaser than anything else. I nor anyone else on these forums have any idea of what the production is like, so it could just be a hint of what may never come, or a second season could be released despite it being apparent financial suicide. We don't know. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I'm going with stupid. I'll write it again: Nakamura is stupid. Don't doubt for a minute that some social worker or psychologist-to-teens would describe her as "has potential" or "capable if she applied herself" or some other stuff "shit-faces" say. The fact remains is she has choices and she is making stupid choices. You could argue several reasons for it, but as I wrote before she is clearly mentally disturbed. Yet she has no outlet for whatever pressures she is feeling inside. She doesn't do art, music, writing, long hikes in the mountains, collect anything obsessively, carve figurines, manic physical fitness or read books like Kasuga. Nothing. All she does is brood in her room -- after doing this for how long she has ONE journal with a few pages filled -- with a rude keep-out graffiti on the door. Other than that she eats, shits, keeps herself reasonably clean and goes to school to do the bare minimum. Also, don't fall for the ploy that she calls herself a shitface and a pervert along with everyone else. She does that to convince herself that she is superior, able to see and admit what nobody else would. She is as much guilty of masking as Kasuga or anyone else is. This all must seem profound and awesome to Kasuga who is too inexperienced and naive to see through any of it. All he sees is "Nakamura is in pain" and he wants to help her and at the same time suckle on what he thinks is a bit tit of wisdom. It is as stupid as any cult is stupid. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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I disagree with that. I think she has a large streak of genuine self-hatred and that self-hatred is probably the wellspring of her hatred for others which is psychologically sound as a motivation. She's like a rat in a cage and yes it is obvious she has absolutely no coping mechanisms for her mysterious rage. Absent any other evidence, a viewer sort of has to assume this attitude and behaviour is the result of some sort of mental illness. |
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danilo07
Posts: 1580 |
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I think Nakamuras anger and hatred towards the society comes around from the fact that everyone tip toes around sex ,but they all want it(episode 7 mentions that). I would guess that she feels oppression from not being able to express her raw emotions,so she blames everyone who follows societal standards for her inability to express emotions and calls him shithead.
The reason why she gets attached to Kasuga is not because she sees entertainer in him,but rather a sexual partner.Her contract to her feels probably like a set up to sex,and fulfillment of contract like a sexual act.Look at how she responds to the scene of vandalism in episode 7,that scene was brimming with eroticism.Her controlling Kasuga definitely feels to me like a BDSM relationship,and what better way to control him then to make him get away from his safe spot(which is in this sense getting beyond that hill). It is also important to note that she in her face has she called a female shithead,it was always men. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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The irony of people calling Flowers pretentious is that it's actually very much a criticism of empty pretension and the self serving ego boosting it serves. That's exactly what Kasuga is doing. And the show knows it. That's its point. Not only does he ultimately acknowledge this, it's really rather obvious that this is true from the start. But at the same time, how anyone can not feel for a person as profoundly socially isolated as Nakamura is beyond me. She has literally no friends. Her classmates treat her like a leper. Hell, they even whisper and gossip about anyone who does interact with her. Her father, while well meaning, obviously has no idea how to communicate with her. She's very much the anti-Kasuga. He's ultimately just a pretentious little shit. But Nakamura has real problems. And I think that's sort of the ultimate point of this arc (to some degree anyway, I don't want to oversimplify). It's not just that Kasuga admits to being pretentious, he also ultimately realizes that it's not just about him. He comes to understand how much he hurt Nakamura.
Anyway, in regards to the possibility of season 2, I'm horrified to admit that that it could easily never happen. This would be far from the first show to just end on a cliff hanger on some vague hope that never pans out. If we're being positive here though, there are two things I'll point out: 1) Keep in mind that the economics of this show may be wildly different from the usual anime show. I mean, I'm not sure. Is rotoscoping cheaper than traditional animation? Maybe. Tracing has got to be easier than drawing from scratch. And I would think taking the reference shots is super cheap. 2) I could be totally wrong here but could they already be working on part 2? Given the sheer number of shots of season 2 material I can't help but wonder. That's a lot of effort just to put into what was essentially a preview for a season 2 that may never happen. |
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LUNI_TUNZ
 Posts: 809 |
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Well, she brings it all upon herself, afterall. Most people wouldn't hang around with someone who calls them a worthless shit-face every 90-seconds. Also, I imagine it costs more than traditional anime to produce, as it uses live-actors, live sets, and all that. And that's before roto-scoping. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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It's not like it's impossible to animate for something that never happens: Katanagatari episode 04 preview. |
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