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Attack on Titan (TV).


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Noctis313



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 65
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:06 am Reply with quote
Only 12 episodes? Fuc*
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Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2509
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:20 am Reply with quote
@ Noctis313

See the post before yours, looks like it will be at least 22 episodes.

Hmm, regarding the supposed contrivances and poor writing in the first episode, I'm going to have to mostly disagree.

@Clarste Eh, without you being more specific I can't argue too much, but as I said, I disagree.

Keichitsu0305 wrote:
Ep. 1:
As for the constant plot convenience (Gee whiz, who would've thought that on the same day the Retcon Group failed to find new land to colonize would also be the day that some literal bolt from the blue spoiler[brought forth a 50+ meter giant that was smart enough to kick the wall down?]


I think you misunderstood, they weren't really looking for new land to colonize as much as they were attempting to take back land they already knew about from the Titans. And more than that, they were hoping to learn something about the Titans: like, say, where they come from and how to stop more of them from appearing. And these expeditions seem to be something that happens on a fairly regular basis, and have always failed to make any real progress.

So why does it matter that spoiler[the attack happened the same day as one of the failures? What if it had happened a week later? "Isn't it convenient that only a week after the latest recon expedition failed, a giant titan appeared?" How about a day earlier? "Isn't it convenient a giant titan appeared to attack the city just the very day before they were going to send out a new expedition?" You could make that argument for any timing. You say it's convenient, but convenient how?] What exactly is the difference between the attack occurring that day or any other day, other than the the anime not having to put "1 week later" at the bottom during a scene transition?

This is of course assuming that the expedition didn't spoiler[somehow do something to directly trigger the attack, of course. But if that turns out to be the case, then it's simple cause and effect and not any sort of contrivance.]

Quote:
Not too mention the spoiler[death of his mother via Titan] will most defiantly not influence his future decision making. ;D) yeah...


Hmm, you're right, I bet he'll want to join the Recon Corps now, that organization he had absolutely no interest in joining beforehand. Oh, wait. Razz

One-Eye wrote:
Keichitsu0305 wrote:
As for the constant plot convenience...
Yea, if I recall correctly the beginning of the manga was like that. They couldn't have telegraphed it more--spoiler["the walls will come down and the Titans will attack someday! Oh, and it just happens to be today!"]--if they hit us with a sledgehammer.


Ok, that I'll give you, but I suppose I can forgive it because in the grand scheme of things it's meaningless: the attack could have occurred later and all it would have meant was some scene transitions and rearranging of events. The only coincidence so far that seems like it has any bearing on the story from what I can tell spoiler[involves his father and the basement, but we don't know enough about that yet to properly judge it.]

Honestly, I do get some of what you guys are talking about, since a bunch of stuff happened rather quickly, but as I said, I can forgive this since aside from maybe one thing, all that would have changed had they not occurred on the same day was we'd get some additional scene transitions and "x days later" captions.
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Clarste



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 411
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:32 am Reply with quote
Important things that happened on the same day:

His desire to join the suicide team gets revealed through talking to the drunk guards (apparently he'd been keeping this a secret? It's hard to imagine how, given his personality). Obviously this triggers the discussion with his family, which happens exactly when his father is leaving on a trip, so he gets the "hint" of whatever it is but there's no time to examine it yet.

Also on the same day, right on cue to contrast with his desire, the team comes back wounded and demoralized. Which isn't so odd on its own, except for the fact that on this one day of all days the team leader has a complete breakdown, drops his facade of polite reassurance, and admits to the accumulated guilt he's felt over leading his team to their pointless deaths. This is a one-time event that can never happen again in this generation. It's another "secret revealed".

Right when this is happening, "third friend" (I can't tell if it's a guy or a girl) is getting bullied just in time to show us that there are kindred spirits worried about the walls but also just late enough for nothing serious to happen. Based on the dialog, this particular event doesn't occur ever day since the arguments were novel instead of "why are you always..." or whatever.

And then of course they have a conversation that leads directly into the wall failing.

Essentially, not a single thing that happened in the episode was part of an "ordinary day". None of them on their own are particularly unusual, but they're also not things that can happen every single day, since most of them are irreversible or unique. The net effect of all this is that the town and its characters have no history whatsoever. Anything that could possibly be relevant happens on this one day, and all the characters talk as if they need to exposit as much as possible to the audience in as short a period as possible. It's completely unnatural from beginning to end. If the story is a puppet, the strings aren't even hidden. Everything happened simply because it was convenient for the author.
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Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2509
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:10 am Reply with quote
Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I think you are misunderstanding things in a few cases. For one thing, I got the impression that Mikasa had known for a while that Eren wanted to join the Recon Corps. Eren was clearly keeping this a secret from his parents deliberately, and he at some point told Mikasa to keep it a secret as well, given he his reaction when she revealed it. So I don't think this secret was revealed when he talked to Hannes, it was revealed when Mikasa told his parents. And the fact that this happened the same day the spoiler[Recon Corps returned horribly savaged and the leader had a breakdown is most likely not a coincidence at all.] Probably, this event bothered Mikasa enough to reveal the secret to Erin's parents. Not convenience or coincidence, simple cause and effect.

The "third friend" is a guy by the way. And while him being bullied for that particular reason may not happen every day, it's clear from the reactions the bullies had to both Erin and Mikasa that they've had scrapes with them before. Probably from them bullying Armin (the third friend.) Is it coincidental that it involved Armin talking about the walls? Maybe, but it seems like Erin at least is pretty outspoken about his views (aside from trying to keep it secret from his parents), and his comment to Armin about "We just want to go outside. Why does everyone hate us?" makes it seem like Armin has had trouble from revealing his views before too. So it doesn't seem like what happened was that uncommon an incident.

And you say not a single thing happened that was part of an "ordinary day", but that's not true. Mikasa and Erin gathered firewood. They saved Armin from some bullies, which as I said before seems like a fairly common thing based on the way the bullies behaved. They talked to a guard that they knew and had talked to before. Yah, there was a bit of clunky exposition at times, most notably Armin's explanation of the King's Laws had a very "as you know" feel to it, but it wasn't nearly as bad as you are acting like, in my view. Certainly not unnatural from beginning to end.
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Clarste



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 411
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:18 am Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I think you are misunderstanding things in a few cases. For one thing, I got the impression that Mikasa had known for a while that Eren wanted to join the Recon Corps. Eren was clearly keeping this a secret from his parents deliberately, and he at some point told Mikasa to keep it a secret as well, given he his reaction when she revealed it. So I don't think this secret was revealed when he talked to Hannes, it was revealed when Mikasa told his parents. And the fact that this happened the same day the spoiler[Recon Corps returned horrible savaged and the leader had a breakdown is most likely not a coincidence at all.] Probably, this event bothered Mikasa enough to reveal the secret to Erin's parents. Not convenience or coincidence, simple cause and effect.

The third friend is a guy by the way. And while him being bullied for that particular reason may not happen every day, it's clear from the reactions the bullies had to both Erin and Mikasa that they've had scrapes with them before. Probably from them bullying the Armin (the third friend.) Is it coincidental that it involved Armin talking about the walls? Maybe, but it seems like Erin at least is pretty outspoken about his views (aside from trying to keep it secret from his parents), and his comment to Armin about "We just want to go outside. Why does everyone hate us?" makes it seem like being bullied for their views actually isn't that uncommon an incident.


All this falls into the "how the hell did he ever keep this is a secret for any amount of time" problem, only moreso. If he's outspoken about his views, and gets bullied for his views, and random people he talks to on the street can figure out his views, how the hell did none of this ever reach his parents? This is all part of "lacking a history". Absolutely nothing happened before this day.

Quote:
And you say not a single thing happened that was part of an "ordinary day", but that's not true. Mikasa and Erin gathered firewood. They saved Armin from some bullies, which as I said before seems like a fairly common thing based on the way the bullies behaved. They talked to a guard that they knew and had talked to before. Yah, there was a bit of clunky exposition at times, most notably Arming's explanation of the King's Laws had a very "as you know" feel to it, but it wasn't nearly as bad as you are acting like, in my view. Certainly not unnatural from beginning to end.


The firewood was also unnatural. Remember the prophetic dream? Heck, his mother implied that Mikasa doesn't usually help him gather firewood. Which actually means that her presence there was unusual, and therefore having her see the ravaged team with him was also unusual, which means her decision to reveal his secret-for-day to his parents was spawned by a collision of two unusual circumstances. How convenient when exposition and character development can occur side by side! And it certainly seemed like they had been bullied before, but the actual contents of the bullying were treated as novel: something that needed to be explained. There's no history, only exposition.

I'm not saying it's a bad show, and I'm certainly going to keep watching, the storytelling just stuck out to me in an awkward way. Hopefully it'll get better once the need to exposit is past.
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Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:29 am Reply with quote
Clarste wrote:


All this falls into the "how the hell did he ever keep this is a secret for any amount of time" problem, only moreso. If he's outspoken about his views, and gets bullied for his views, and random people he talks to on the street can figure out his views, how the hell did none of this ever reach his parents? This is all part of "lacking a history". Absolutely nothing happened before this day.


How often do parents take time to talk to young punks? I suppose if Erin complained about Armin or himself being bullied for his views, maybe, but Erin wouldn't do that.


Quote:
The firewood was also unnatural. Remember the prophetic dream? Heck, his mother implied that Mikasa doesn't usually help him gather firewood. Which actually means that her presence there was unusual, and therefore having her see the ravaged team with him was also unusual, which means her decision to reveal his secret-for-day to his parents was spawned by a collision of two unusual circumstances. How convenient when exposition and character development can occur side by side! And it certainly seemed like they had been bullied before, but the actual contents of the bullying were treated as novel: something that needed to be explained. There's no history, only exposition.

We don't know the reason for his dream, so it's a bit early to act like it's contrived. And are you seriously trying to argue that something as simple as Mikasa helping him gather firewood is "unnatural"? And Mikasa being with Erin is as well? The two of them live in the same house for crying out loud, they are obviously very close, of course they are going to be together a lot.

Eh, I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this.
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Clarste



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 411
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:40 am Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
How often do parents take time to talk to young punks? I suppose if Erin complained about Armin or himself being bullied for his views, maybe, but Erin wouldn't do that.


How often do young punks keep socially damaging facts secret? They wouldn't be talking directly, it'd just be a rumor. Unfortunately, that can't happen because it would require the world to have existed for more than a day.

Quote:
We don't know the reason for his dream, so it's a bit early to act like it's contrived. And are you seriously trying to argue that something as simple as Mikasa helping him gather firewood is "unnatural"? And Mikasa being with Erin is as well? The two of them live in the same house for crying out loud, they are obviously very close, of course they are going to be together a lot.

Eh, I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this.


I didn't mean it was unnatural, I meant "unusual". (The dream itself is unnatural, regardless of whether or not a reason is given for it, but it's supposed to be so that's okay) Not part of their daily routine. But the fact that nothing that happens in the episode is "usual" means that the episode as a whole feels unnatural. It's the accumulation of small things.

I think we can agree to disagree. I really don't think it's that important, I just felt it was worth mentioning in a "first impressions" sense. In the long run no one will care as the story will have moved past it.
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Mad_Scientist



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2509
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:43 am Reply with quote
Clarste wrote:

I think we can agree to disagree. I really don't think it's that important, I just felt it was worth mentioning in a "first impressions" sense. In the long run no one will care as the story will have moved past it.


I was going to respond further, but I'm getting tired, and so yah, agree to disagree. I am definitely looking forward to seeing the anime reach the meat of the story.
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drdr48



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 360
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:25 am Reply with quote
So this show is basically Spider-Men vs. Giants!

I love it! Very Happy
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9285
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:26 am Reply with quote
If I have one major complaint, and hope it goes away, it's that every reaction is treated as an overreaction with a lot of loud bickering and no subtlety. I haven't read the manga, so I'll keep watching for the setting of the world and circumstance the humans are living under, they're going to have to try very hard to make me care about the named characters.
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ookamigirl



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 2274
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:19 am Reply with quote
Looks interesting.
Has some serious potential.
All the action near the end was intense!
Can't wait to watch next episode.
Will be watching this one.
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danilo07



Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1576
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:44 am Reply with quote
Quote:
If I have one major complaint, and hope it goes away, it's that every reaction is treated as an overreaction with a lot of loud bickering and no subtlety.

Yeah that's Testuo Araki being Testuo Araki,from what I have read reactions in manga werent as nearly overblown as they were in anime.I highly doubt it will change in future,which is fine for me cause this is one of the trademarks of old Japanese movies and there is even kaiju here.I am all in for this anime.
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DuskyPredator
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!It...it's not like I post for you or anything!


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:22 am Reply with quote
Episode 1

The first episode had me in amazement, well so much so that after the first couple of minutes I knew that I wanted to enjoy the whole awesome thing in a way I can enjoy it most. So straight after starting I get asked to walk to the shops to buy milk, after getting back I get distracted for a little bit by issues, then the tv had The Middle, followed by Suburgatory, Dr Who, and Elementary, so it like 11 PM before I can watch most of it. I think I just did a rant, well something about trying to catch a Qurupeco and fight a Royal Ludroth in the mean time should fit in there somewhere.

Anyway, on with the topic, I found it to be really good, the animation was great, with well done designs that included shadow, this was especially noticeable in the beginning bit, and in the catastrophic scene towards the end. Although there were a number of times the picture would just not move, this can be a big problem to people, although is somewhat tolerable from what I have seen. I have no problems with the music, I tend to not notice that sort of thing anyway unless it is something unique. Actually looking back there was barely any music at all, mostly small cues if anything, but they did an amazing job at setting the mood despite that. They did use it during the Titan attack, so maybe something there.

And on the supposed coincidences, I did not really see it as such, I really saw it as: A day like any other had him collecting wood, on the way back he meets the walls guards, one of who he knows, they seem to pick up that he has had raising thought to join the recons, not really a big deal. Though that day turns sour when returning recons had a bad trip, bad enough to brake the leader's cool, this brake has the effect of pushing Mikasa to tell Erin's parents about what he has been thinking, the father though might be impressed over his desire. The bad news of the expedition spreading probably pushed the bullies to pick on the kid who wants to leave the wall. Then things go to hell with the giant Titan attacking, the fact in coincided with the recon return makes me theorise that it may have well been bad because of some force, and the reason few if any at all made it back was that the force wanted to find where the human city was. the major events are linked instead of being separate.

I am not really a fan of blood and brutality, but this really got me hooked. I am in.
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MrTerrorist



Joined: 20 Oct 2010
Posts: 1114
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:52 am Reply with quote
Well i'm hooked. I think i'll watch this anime while reading together with the manga.
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JustinGallimore



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:44 am Reply with quote
Great first episode, I think im going to love this series.
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