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Chagen46 wrote:

Utsuro no Hako wrote:

Fencedude5609 wrote:

Utsuro no Hako wrote:

As much as I hate the rape-cage story in the second half of the series, I don't think it wipes away her awesomeness in the first arc.

What awesomeness?

She was second-in-command of the best guild in SAO and the primary battlefield commander for the clearing parties. She had multiple bad-ass moments in fights, and she managed to put the hero on a leash and lead him around like a dog.

Yeah, no. That's all irrelevant. Asuna is said to be the second in command of the best guild in SAO. When does ever do something related to this? She's said to be bad-ass, but it's all offscreen. She's said to be the primary battlefield commander, but actually point me to one goddamn time she did something related to that.

Asuna is merely the perfect example of Men Act, Women Are (note how Kirito is defined the by the things he does--taking out bosses, saving cute girls, kicking ass--while Asuna is defined by what she is--the second-in-command, battlfield commander, etc.).

*points to Skull reaper fight* Oh look, she fights on a higher level than every other character bar the main character for the majority of the fight. They work in scync and as a team in a high level boss fight, it's even shown on screen! Amazing right.

I agree that there could be many more moments that depict her good fighting ability, but given that she isn't with the main character for the first half of the series there's no way she could. The only boss fight we see her sidelined in is Gleam Eyes, and every character is sidelined bar Kirito in that fight. Would you not also argue the Klien is also never shown to be amazing but is still high up on some guilds totem pole?

It is a legitimate concern given her powerlessness during the second half (then again look at the first Bleach arc and Rukia's position) but if you are only talking about SAO then unfortunately there aren't enough boss fights for her to show off her ability which are displayed, plus she is always up against Kirito: who is a more skilled player than her.

There are issue's with her character, especially since we don't get much detail on her in the first book, or at all really until Mother's Rosario. But her skill level is not something that can really be disputed, when she has a chance to be bad ass she is, what more do you want? The SAO world is not one where weak people can rise to the top, they would die. Simply being a 'raider' essentially in a high end guild is proof of skill. Sorry we can't watch every boss fight she was ever in without Kirito to satisfy your need for visual proof Sad

Chagen46 wrote:

Asuna is merely the perfect example of Men Act, Women Are (note how Kirito is defined the by the things he does--taking out bosses, saving cute girls, kicking ass--while Asuna is defined by what she is--the second-in-command, battlfield commander, etc.).

The main thing I would say is that, even if I accept that the story can be accused of falling into this trope, and that this trope can be seen as offensive, I'm not so sure why this show became such a lightning rod of criticism for a double-standard that is (it seems to me) incredibly common in all sorts of media around the world. (Not that this makes it okay, clearly.) Is it just because it was "over-hyped", and the intensity of the negative response is in reaction to the amount of "undeserved like" others have for it? Or is it just because some people felt the show had so much potential and blew it? I guess I honestly still don't quite understand how amazingly polarizing this show was, and the amount of pure bile thrown its way that seems to me to greatly exceed the flaws claimed.

(I could probably also provide examples of ways I feel the trope was subverted in the show, but I'm so tired of being yelled at/sworn at by people. I wish cooler heads would prevail.)

It's because of the insane amount of popularity it has. Emotions flare up because this show is endlessly talking about. Plus, many, like myself, love the idea and hated how much the story blew it.

relentlessflame wrote:

, I'm not so sure why this show became such a lightning rod of criticism for a double-standard that is (it seems to me) incredibly common in all sorts of media around the world.

And those other media *do* get criticized but we're not discussing them here.

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(Not that this makes it okay, clearly.) Is it just because it was "over-hyped", and the intensity of the negative response is in reaction to the amount of "undeserved like" others have for it? Or is it just because some people felt the show had so much potential and blew it?

Part of it is simply that some of us have been more willing or interested in discussing this issue recently. It may also relate to the fact that it's become a big topic in vedeo games lately. I criticize this in other shows but they don't usually come up here much. SAO is a bigger sore point for me precisely because it seemed like it was going to be better than average, that Asuna would be better, and then it botched her horribly, even in the first half.

It's popularity may factor into it somewhat, but that's mostly for t
people disliking the show in general. I think only a very tiny number of us are talking much or at all about the Asuna issue.

Asuna is a strong character. Asuna is one of the stronger character in the game. She saved Kirito's life.

Spotlesseden wrote:

Asuna is a strong character. Asuna is one of the stronger character in the game. She saved Kirito's life.

Ok...? Thats not what "strong character" means.

Kirito's a pretty terrible character too, actually. If you want to be fair.

Sorry. I withdraw my remark,

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It is a legitimate concern given her powerlessness during the second half (then again look at the first Bleach arc and Rukia's position)

Except that Rukia wasn't tentacle-raped, half undressed and almost raped by the villain on screen, and has actually had some notable victories by herself read: without Ichigo's help. On screen. And we're talking about Bleach which isn't the epitome of gender equality and has always been emphasized by the author as "Ichigo's story". So there's actually no room to compare

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Kawahara: As I said previously, the character of Asuna I might have created a little too perfectly for Sword Art Online. When teamed up with Kirito, there was hardly any problem that the two could not, as a pair, overcome. To increase the sense of urgency during the Fairy Dance story arc, I needed to make her unable to help Kirito. In caging her, I do have some regrets about putting her in a situation to build up a sense of danger for Kirito's adventure in the second story arc.

As a story-writer, what matters most is not what you intend, but what you do. It doesn't matter whether you have a "legitimate" reason for caging Asuna - you still caged her. And in doing that, you betrayed what her character was, and what you described her to be as, in the first place - a strong, capable fighter. She doesn't even attempt to fight back against the antagonist of the second arc, lying helpless as she waits the Marty Stu protagonist that-shall-not-be-named. In the end (and in the words of the great Gigguk himself), she is completely useless without her BOYFRIEND.

sorry!

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You make it sound like confining people and having them be rescued is the worst type of writing instead of a staple of classic literature.

Something being classic doesn't justify it or make it good. Classic literature is filled with awful tropes stuffed with misogyny/racism/etc.

This has become a general SAO discussion rather than a discussion about what Reki Kawahara said in the interview. This is also exactly the kind of discussion that built the Anime forum's thread up to the biggest series thread that we've ever seen in forums. That is the proper place to continue this discussion. Move all of this over there, or I will.

I'm glad that Reki Kawahara is now aware of the fan base for Egil and Klein. Those two guys are just too awesome and have a lot of potential.

And I also hope the series have an American release. Sometimes, I feel ashamed of reading it online without paying the author for his work and time. Take my money!

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Interview: Sword Art Online's Reki Kawahara