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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:28 am Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
F*** It, can I really ask you all question that is bothering the hell out of me??? When did the term moe replace "cute & innocent" for character traits??


Well it didn't, so that would indicate that you might not know what you are talking about.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
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Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:57 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
F*** It, can I really ask you all question that is bothering the hell out of me??? When did the term moe replace "cute & innocent" for character traits??


Well it didn't, so that would indicate that you might not know what you are talking about.


I probably don't have clue what I'm talking about but the term "moe" as trait/genre or even design in anime. I will just make this brief as I can "please for give for any grammar or spelling mistakes".

Okay for those of you that do not know me personally I started on 4chan way back in 2004-05 back when the site had floods of evangelion, azumanga daioh and desu threads. I would watch what they recommend, discuss the shows and move on via torrents. I did this for four years until the rise of crunchy-roll and other legal methods of watching anime online.

I dd not even run across the term moe until 2007 when I watched a fan-sub of lucky-star and didn't know what it meant until 2009. That is when I started to lurk around here for decent anime news and sources, inspiration to do reviews and eventually led me to blogging. Even then I didn't grasp that term moe replaced cutesy girls/guys. I'm still baffled by this till this day. In short all I'm trying to ask is in plain simple words, when did moe become the term to describe, oh look at cute that act or person mannerism is??

Tl;DR

That's all I have in me on this, I will probably never get a straight answer so forget it.
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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Location: The OC
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:54 am Reply with quote
One of the best, most succinct pieces I've ever read about "moe" and its origins and meanings and interpretations was an article written by Tomohiro Machiyama, for Patrick Macias' Cruising the Anime City: An Otaku Guide to Neo Tokyo. It describes "moe" as more of a feeling, rather than a genre or adjective.

As luck would have it, that snippet is available to read on Google books

Link is here

It is a short read, and I highly recommend it to everyone.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:01 am Reply with quote
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
It describes "moe" as more of a feeling, rather than a genre or adjective.


Yes. This. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
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Arsenette



Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:24 am Reply with quote
Okay.. I'm not even 20 minutes in and moe definition is entirely too broad.. some of the anime mentioned is not even in the remotely moe.. I've been watching anime for longer than more than half of this board was even alive.. and I think the definition swap is the part that drives me up the wall.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3714
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:25 am Reply with quote
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
It describes "moe" as more of a feeling, rather than a genre or adjective.

Exactly! You can say the brony phenomenon is an expression of western moe. Even Kannagi and Haruhi director, Yamakan described it as such--that you can be, or feel, moe over anything, even mecha!

I liken it to something analogous to the feeling of "oohh.. shiny!", a sort of more primordial attraction
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Hypeathon



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 1175
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:41 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
ANN_Bamboo wrote:
It describes "moe" as more of a feeling, rather than a genre or adjective.

Exactly! You can say the brony phenomenon is an expression of western moe. Even Kannagi and Haruhi director, Yamakan described it as such--that you can be, or feel, moe over anything, even mecha!

I liken it to something analogous to the feeling of "oohh.. shiny!", a sort of more primordial attraction

Okay, let me ask the following about the word and how it can be applied in anything. If the word moe is meant to describe this sense of feeling good or positive about what you see and it can be applied in virtually anything period, then why do few people outside of certain communities that share specific interests such as anime use that term? Why is this a term not widespread enough where anyone everywhere will casually use it as part of vocabulary to describe anything that happens to make them feel good?

Maybe there's an obvious answer to that question and I'm not realizing it, but I want just to get to the bottom of why a term with a supposedly broad definition is not applied broadly enough. I mean, Bamboo from what I understand likes sports (and if I'm wrong, she can feel free to correct me) but I don't know if I can imagine her casually using the term moe in vocal conversation to describe when she feels good about whatever sport she sees.
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Mr. Zebra



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:51 am Reply with quote
Is it really that difficult to figure out why people might get offended when they are basically being called socially-awkward-losers-who-can't-get-real-girlfriends simply because they like a certain kind of anime? What is the point of saying that other than to be a bully and put other people down? Nobody is saying a critic has to like moe; but there is no good reason for a critic to insult people that do like the genre. I don't like reality TV shows, but I don't go around insulting people that do like reality TV. What would be the point of that? The only reason a person would do that is to feel superior by putting other people down. Calling people "loser nerds" for liking a certain kind of anime (or whatever kind of entertainment or hobby they like) is really uncool.

Also, a good critic is a person that judges a work of art on its own terms. That means the critic needs to ask himself what he thinks the work of art was trying to achieve and then judge it based on how well he believes it achieved its own goals. For example, one wouldn't give a moe show a bad review for not being deep and philosophical when that is clearly not what the moe show set out to achieve in the first place. That would be just as absurd as giving a bad review to a James Bond movie for not being more like 2001: A Space Odyssey. The James Bond movie was never even attempting to be like 2001: A Space Odyssey. It's fine to have personal preferences for certain genres, but when you're reviewing something you need to review it on it's own terms. It's not fair to give something a bad review just because you personally don't like the genre it's in.
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Arsenette



Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:55 am Reply with quote
Mr. Zebra wrote:
Is it really that difficult to figure out why people might get offended when they are basically being called socially-awkward-losers-who-can't-get-real-girlfriends simply because they like a certain kind of anime? What is the point of saying that other than to be a bully and put other people down? Nobody is saying a critic has to like moe; but there is no good reason for a critic to insult people that do like the genre. I don't like reality TV shows, but I don't go around insulting people that do like reality TV. What would be the point of that? The only reason a person would do that is to feel superior by putting other people down. Calling people "loser nerds" for liking a certain kind of anime (or whatever kind of entertainment or hobby they like) is really uncool.

Also, a good critic is a person that judges a work of art on its own terms. That means the critic needs to ask himself what he thinks the work of art was trying to achieve and then judge it based on how well he believes it achieved its own goals. For example, one wouldn't give a moe show a bad review for not being deep and philosophical when that is clearly not what the moe show set out to achieve in the first place. That would be just as absurd as giving a bad review to a James Bond movie for not being more like 2001: A Space Odyssey. The James Bond movie was never even attempting to be like 2001: A Space Odyssey. It's fine to have personal preferences for certain genres, but when you're reviewing something you need to review it on it's own terms. It's not fair to give something a bad review just because you personally don't like the genre it's in.


If I am reading this correctly, you are going with the assumption that Zac has NEVER rated a show with heavy moe elements higher than "blarg". That is disingenuous and quite frankly hypocritical. You are doing exactly the same thing to Zac that you are accusing him of. You are also singling out Zac as one voice in the internet as if he personally is keeping you down. Apparently you didn't bother listening to the podcast.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:56 am Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:

Okay, let me ask the following about the word and how it can be applied in anything. If the word moe is meant to describe this sense of feeling good or positive about what you see and it can be applied in virtually anything period, then why do few people outside of certain communities that share specific interests such as anime use that term? Why is this a term not widespread enough where anyone everywhere will casually use it as part of vocabulary to describe anything that happens to make them feel good?

Maybe there's an obvious answer to that question and I'm not realizing it, but I want just to get to the bottom of why a term with a supposedly broad definition is not applied broadly enough. I mean, Bamboo from what I understand likes sports (and if I'm wrong, she can feel free to correct me) but I don't know if I can imagine her casually using the term moe in vocal conversation to describe when she feels good about whatever sport she sees.


Because...the term is only used in those communities? Its the same reason why only people in this community use (or even know) the term "Zettai Ryouiki". The fact that its only used in Japan and among anime/manga fans doesn't magically mean "the few inches of skin between the top of a thigh-high sock and the hem of a short skirt" doesn't actually exist anywhere else. It just doesn't have a specific name.

Also the term is gradually growing among Japanese pop-culture in general. The reason it seems hyper-specific to you is because you aren't Japanese
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Mr. Zebra



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:59 am Reply with quote
Quote:
If I am reading this correctly, you are going with the assumption that Zac has NEVER rated a show with heavy moe elements higher than "blarg". That is disingenuous and quite frankly hypocritical. You are doing exactly the same thing to Zac that you are accusing him of. You are also singling out Zac as one voice in the internet as if he personally is keeping you down. Apparently you didn't bother listening to the podcast.


I didn't say anything specifically about Zac in my post. You are projecting.


Last edited by Mr. Zebra on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Arsenette



Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:00 am Reply with quote
Mr. Zebra wrote:
Quote:
If I am reading this correctly, you are going with the assumption that Zac has NEVER rated a show with heavy moe elements higher than "blarg". That is disingenuous and quite frankly hypocritical. You are doing exactly the same thing to Zac that you are accusing him of. You are also singling out Zac as one voice in the internet as if he personally is keeping you down. Apparently you didn't bother listening to the podcast.


I didn't say anything about Zac in my post. You are projecting.


This is a talkback about the podcast. If Zac wasn't implied you are on the wrong thread..
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poonk



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1490
Location: In the Library with Philip
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:01 am Reply with quote
Hypeathon wrote:
Okay, let me ask the following about the word and how it can be applied in anything. If the word moe is meant to describe this sense of feeling good or positive about what you see and it can be applied in virtually anything period, then why do few people outside of certain communities that share specific interests such as anime use that term? Why is this a term not widespread enough where anyone everywhere will casually use it as part of vocabulary to describe anything that happens to make them feel good?

Maybe there's an obvious answer to that question and I'm not realizing it, but I want just to get to the bottom of why a term with a supposedly broad definition is not applied broadly enough. I mean, Bamboo from what I understand likes sports (and if I'm wrong, she can feel free to correct me) but I don't know if I can imagine her casually using the term moe in vocal conversation to describe when she feels good about whatever sport she sees.
I tend to agree. Though through watching (and hearing) Japanese live action stuff I do understand their usage of the term (as a response rather than an character trait), in Western anime fandom I rarely hear the term used outside a rather specific range of character-types. I mean, though I've occasionally found myself saying I'm "moe" over a character (btw usually a very capable adult male), when someone says "X is a moe series/contains moe tropes"/whatnot, I fully understand that it's not the type of character that appeals to me (i.e. it will invariably be a cute-girl-type series). With context, I quite easily recognize the difference in the usage of the term.


Last edited by poonk on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 593
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:03 am Reply with quote
Timeenforceranubis wrote:
laceblade wrote:
I find Zac's take on the voyeurism in K-ON! kind of fascinating, because I didn't feel that way at all watching it. I think that take is entirely related to the male gaze.
I was absolutely invested in the actual characters, their friendship, and the music they made together. That is the only reason I watched the show. (I am straight, idk if that matters.)


Zac isn't the first person I've heard the voyeurism angle from concerning K-ON!, in particular. In this type of anime, the viewer's presence is completely irrelevant. If K-ON! was an anime with pantyshots all over the place and the camera focusing in on them (I.E. "Male Gaze"), that would be voyeuristic, but K-ON! isn't that kind of show. The characters aren't girls you're looking at through a keyhole. It's more like you are the room that Yui, Mio, Ritsu, Mugi, and Azusa are eating cake and drinking tea in.


Well ... yes and no.

On the one hand I see your point and I understand where you and laceblade are coming from. K-ON is a show which is in fact also really popular among young girls in Japan - I saw that myself at the junior high school I'm teaching at. The girls in the show represent a kind of idealistic friendship and a group you, as a viewer, want to be part of.

But on the other hand, it still can be interpreted as kind of voyeuristic because there is a lot of emphasis on pillow shots which heighten the girls' bodies and their general cuteness, even though there are no panties to be seen. The girls general apprearance and physique is represented as fresh and lively, and thus as a kind of ideal to you as the observer.

By "pillow shots" I mean shots like close-ups on the legs when they're walking and talking (see for example the one long shot in the movie at the end) or sitting in the club room. Or emphasis on the hair, the hands, ect. The body is being fragmented and shown in parts here and there.

Shots like these are hardly uncommon in anime and especially in a show about girls like K-ON, but you won't find them in any show which are aimed to kids for example and that for a reason.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:10 am Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:


Shots like these are hardly uncommon in anime and especially in a show about girls like K-ON, but you won't find them in any show which are aimed to kids for example and that for a reason.


You don't watch many Japanese kids shows, do you?
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